First Romanian casualties in Afghanistan

-Perhaps someone is interested in reading how the Soviets were defeated in Afghanistan-.. :idea:

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World > Asia: South & Central
from the christian science monitor - http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0823/p01s04-wosc.html


MADE IN CHINA: Major Mohammad Daud of the Afghan Border Security Force in Spin Boldak, Afghanistan, shows one of the surface-to-air missile launchers left behind by Taliban troops.

KABUL, AFGHANISTAN – Islamic warriors, Chinese weapons, Pakistani spies, and American money. It was the formula that defeated the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in 1989.
Pakistani intelligence agents received millions of dollars from America's Central Intelligence Agency to buy Chinese guns. Pakistan then gave these weapons to Afghan guerrillas and to a foreign legion of holy warriors from all over the Islamic world, who defeated the Soviet Army in 1989.
Now, Afghanistan's top military and intelligence officials say this same Pakistani-Chinese weapons channel is being used for a very different purpose: to destabilize the new Afghan government of President Hamid Karzai, and to challenge the US military in the deserts and airspace of Afghanistan.

"China is a strategic friend of Pakistan, and they are capable of bringing such kind of weapons to Pakistan anytime so they can be used against our government," says Engineer Ali, chief of Afghanistan's intelligence agency, KHAD. "China does not want to create problems for us," he adds, "but the Pakistanis can deceive China. They can tell China that the weapons will be used for its own domestic purposes, but then use them for international terrorism."

An Afghan intelligence report, cited by the Monitor on Aug. 9, says that Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and is attempting to purchase Chinese antiaircraft weapons. These Afghan charges are straining the already fragile relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan, two key members of America's antiterrorism coalition.

At a press conference this week in Islamabad, Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf flatly denied that Pakistan was supporting Al Qaeda, and said instead that Al Qaeda had regrouped within Afghanistan "because of the weakness of the central transitional government in Kabul."

In response, Afghan Defense Minister Muhammad Fahim on Wednesday fumed that General Musharraf's charges were "false and baseless," and said that Al Qaeda had regrouped within the Pashtun tribal areas that both Afghanistan and Pakistan claim.

Afghan intelligence officials admit that they only have reports that Al Qaeda is attempting to buy Chinese antiaircraft weapons. The sale, they say, has not taken place. And China vigorously denies Afghan claims that it's indirectly arming Al Qaeda. American and Afghan strategists agree it would be counterproductive for China to have any sort of arms-supplying relationship with Islamic radicals. China has its own longstanding Islamist militant tensions in the western province of Xinjiang, which borders Afghanistan.

But senior Afghan military sources – including those who fought during the anti-Soviet jihad – say that Pakistan's close military relationship with China continues to facilitate the flow of weapons into the region, and that could turn the tide of the war inside Afghanistan. In addition, they say, rogue agents within Pakistan's powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency may be funneling these weapons to Islamists without the knowledge or approval of either China or Pakistan's own president.

ISI rogue elements helping Taliban?

"The people in the ISI today are the same people who created the Al Qaeda and the Taliban," says Gen. Mohammad Aslam Masoud, chairman of the National Defense and Security Commission in the Afghan president's office. "They will definitely try to buy missiles from China. I don't know if China is that stupid to give these weapons to them, but Pakistan can buy the missiles for themselves and give them to the terrorists."

Past history and ongoing military alliances show that China and Pakistan have not avoided supplying weapons to Islamic radicals. From 1979 to the Soviet defeat in 1989, Pakistan smuggled Chinese and other weapons into Afghanistan, and gave them to seven Afghan Islamist parties and to thousands of fighters from across the Islamic world. The bulk of the weapons were Kalashnikov rifles purchased from China, Egypt, and a host of Eastern-bloc countries. But the most important weapons in turning the tide of the war were Chinese- and American-made shoulder-fired rockets, which allowed Afghan guerrillas to shoot down Soviet helicopters and low-flying jets.

General Masoud, himself a former guerrilla commander, says that Chinese weapons were crucial. "In the first days we got a few Kalashnikov rifles, but later they gave us surface-to-air missiles and rockets to shoot down the helicopters and planes," says Masoud. "After we got those weapons, the Soviet's air superiority was hurt, and step by step they lost territory to us."

China denies supplying any weapons to Al Qaeda, although it does admit to a long-term strategic relationship with Pakistan to counter the Soviet presence in Central Asia. But over the past 20 years, Pakistan has developed its own foreign-policy goals, and created close relationships with a number of hardline Islamist parties, including the Taliban. Pakistan's ISI maintained close contact with the Taliban leadership until Pakistan severed relations after Sept. 11.

In their final days, the Taliban themselves boasted that they had a strategic pact with China. Last October, the powerful Taliban commander Maulvi Jalaluddin Haqqani told reporters that China was "extending support and cooperation to the Taliban, but the shape of the cooperation cannot be disclosed." At the time, US officials discounted the statements as bluster.

"China has never had any contact with the Al Qaeda terrorist network, and certainly not military relations," said a foreign ministry spokesman in Beijing last week.

Ikram Sehgal, a Pakistani defense analyst based in Karachi, says, "The quantum of arms cooperation between China and Pakistan is a closely guarded secret. Pakistan depends heavily on China for aircraft and missile technology but is not totally dependent on it."

What is clear is that the vast majority of the weapons captured by US and allied forces since the fall of the Taliban last November have been Chinese made, say Afghan military chiefs. US military officials here say they have no statistics on the country of origin of weapons. "I don't know that we have evidence of continued flow of weapons into Afghanistan," says Lt. Col. Roger King, US military spokesman at Bagram air base. "We find weapons that have been placed in storage facilities. And we have found some equipment that was in relatively good condition, and didn't appear to be old, which could point to some efforts to resupply."

A view from the border

From his fortress on the edge of Spin Boldak, a town on the southeastern border with Pakistan, Major Mohammad Daud of the Afghan Border Security Force says he is absolutely certain that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are resupplying in Pakistan.

As a former guerrilla commander himself, Major Daud has long experience in dealing with the ISI and receiving weapons from the agency. And from what he and his men have seen, in patrols along the Afghan border, the Taliban are getting better and better armed.

"Our vehicles are the ones the Taliban left behind, our guns are their old guns that jam all the time," he laments. "Just the other day, our spies found out about a Taliban patrol coming into the country, so we laid an ambush. But when they arrived, they had better cars, better guns, and we had no choice. We had to let them go."

On a stroll through some bunkers, he picks through antiaircraft weapons left behind by the Taliban. "Whatever we have now is Chinese. Rockets, missiles, they're all Chinese," says Daud. He picks up a Chinese shoulder-fired antiaircraft rocket launcher. The most expensive and crucial part of the weapon, the optical sight, has been removed by the Taliban.
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[Geto-Dacul]

I even heard of some people who compare our presence in Afghanistan like the war begun in 1941!

Getu'

[Dr_V]

QUOTE

Der Maresal wrote: This romanian soldier, and the Polish officer the other day who died in Irak - died in vain, they did not dye \"for their own country\"   They died for someone elses country.!

Serving the country do not mean only defending its teritory. In the present political situation, the participation of Romanian troops in Afganistan and Irak (and in Bosnia as well) is requested by our country's political partners. I don't say it's the right thing to do, I share your opinion about the things that generated such a war and the selfish American policy.

But as Romania does need help from the western states, it can't deny their request for troops, even if we know that our troops will be assigned to the most dangerous tasks there. And by accomplishing these tasks, the Romanian troops serve their country, because Romania gains idirectly some political and echonomical advantages from their sacrifice. To give some medals is one of the smallest things that the state must do when it asks its soldiers to go fight in a place where they should not be.

Of course that isn't a just cause, but the soldiers do what our government asks them to do. And to avenge a comrades death is not related to the motive of their involvement there. Such an attitude is common to every soldier in any army. They are there 'cause they were ordered so and if someone starts killing them than that one is the enemy, regardless of the debate about who is right and who isn't.

[boonicootza]

Dumnezeu sa-l ierte!


The man died for the USA cause and the war against terrorism. Romania will be soon an integrant part of NATO. If someone attacks us, ofcourse soldiers from United States and other member states will fight as our allies. If they die, did they die for they country? Is the same question.


Peace!

[inahurry]

The Afghans dying in Afghanistan die for their country too. The Taliban regime (initially supported by USA) was a more legitimate one ( because of their successful fight against the Russians ) than the collection of clan leaders, if not thugs, USA now favors.
The poor Romanian died for nothing, as are the American, Italian, British, etc. soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan. In Iraq the media liars gradually are forced to admit the “terrorists” are in fact “insurgents” and now already the local US media uses the correct word : resistant. Same in Afghanistan, where a foreign backed occupational government exists. Talibans are by no means innocent but the real terrorists are the Bush and Blair cronies. The Iliescu (---) promised more cannon fodder for the hungry Leviathan in his recent, humiliating ( they don’t know Romanian flag from Russian one, do they? – let’s be serious!) visit in US.
The US is already helping us – see the ambassador Guest ( a tinier P. Bremer ) ’s constant meddling in our affairs. I bet they are very glad with the referendum outcome too, the “defenders of democracy”.

God rests his soul. He was one of us who died for the ones who hate us. He was brave by just being there. We’ll need the survivors experience here after they’ll have a first hand experience. Nothing better than personal suffering to see through the web of lies. Our future “fremens”.

[mabadesc]

boonicutza said:

QUOTE

The man died for the USA cause and the war against terrorism. Romania will be soon an integrant part of NATO. If someone attacks us, ofcourse soldiers from United States and other member states will fight as our allies. If they die, did they die for they country? Is the same question.

Yes! By far the most logical argument in this thread.
You can't pick and choose your actions with an ally.
By the way, I believe the US did not ask for Romanian contribution specifically. Romania volunteered to send her own troops.

In any case, a military alliance is like a friendship. A friend helps the other in times of need and in return knows that he'll be helped by the other if the situation arises. Isn't it nice to know we've got the US and the UK behind us if someone bothers us?

So if you want to criticize someone, criticize Romania for wanting to join the alliance (NATO).

Most people in this thread seem to hate NATO - I submit to you that maybe Romania had the choice of forming a military alliance with Russia, or Ukraine? Would that have been better?

[Dénes]

The Rumanian soldier wounded recently in Afghanistan, Sergent major Mihail Anton Samuilă, has died of his wounds this morning.
May he also rest in peace.

[inahurry]

Very sad. It was a shock when I heard, even if not surprising, a shock like when you realize a definitive loss. We should end this criminal stupidity before we enter the banality of death counting.

These are not our wars !

Victor, maybe you could change the name of the thread to something less statistical. They are our countrymen, we should honor them in death if we couldn' prevent it. At least on this forum they can be spared the hypocrites' long faces and furtive peeks to the wristwatch to see how long before the boring funeral ceremony is over.

Dumnezeu sa-l ierte !

[inahurry]

I've got carried away. This is not the thread to talk about world empires and the fate of small countries, maybe one of the moderators can extract the posts and make a new thread.

[boonicootza]

They were decorated post-mortem.
Sublocotenet Iosif Fogorasi - The Order of Military Virtue Knigth class with Swords.
Samuila Teodor Mihai-Anton - Military Virtue medal second class with Swords.

[boonicootza]

Samuila Teodor Mihai-Anton was also decorated with The Order of Military Virtue Knigth class with Swords.
The medal was given before his death.

Peace!

[Dan Po]

May he rest in Peace !

He was born in Bihor county ...

I just want to say something :

If i understand well the families of romanian KIA soldiers receive 45.000.000 lei ... (aprox 1,400 $) ....

The families of romanian citisens who died in Madrid in 11 march receive 100.000.000 lei ... (rough. 3000$)

We cannot apreciate a life in money and for all this families i have all my consideration and all my respect.

But, why they give such a small aid for a KIA soldier - who was send there by the gouvern - if we compare with the aid of Madrid s victims ? (who was there with private interests?).

[Victor]

It's been one year now since then.

[Victor]

As already mentioned in another thread, yesterday 24 April 2005, a TAB of the 300th Infantry Battalion patrolling near Kandahar passed over an explosive charge, which was detonated from distance. The explosion made the ammunitions in the AFV also blow up and one soldier was killed and two other were wounded:

- sergeant Narcis Şonei (KIA)
- sergeanl Gabriel Hanganu (WIA)
- sergeant Adrian Dogaru (WIA)

Dumnezeu sa-l ierte.