What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?

F16 Block 52 is obsolete? When did that happen? Check the performance figures and you will be amazed to see that it beats many of the so-called "better" aircraft that the so-called "specialists" keep bandying around.

The F16 is tried and tested in battle and can hold its own against pretty much everything up in the sky at this moment.

Many mistakenly think that because the first F16 flew 30 years ago, it is an old design, therefore it is "obsolete", but in fact, Block 52 aircraft share nothing with the earlier types and it is as advanced technologically as the Eurofighter (expensive, too complex and difficult to maintain, troubled by all kinds of delays), the Rafale (an aircraft that is struggling to find a purpose) or the Viggen (which is inferior to a last-generation F16 in almost every respect and is not compliant with NATO standards).

Google "F16 Block 52" and prepare to be impressed.

Radu

Excess Defense Articles (EDA): Used weapons and equipment given away for free to foreign governments. Excess defense articles are given away as-is and are sometimes refused by the foreign government.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/655-2002/6552002.html

My problem with F16 is that the design is at the end of its development cycle,and cannot b improved any further, whereas the rival designs are at the beginning of their developpment cycle, and will continue to be improved for decades. We need an aircraft like the Mig-21: we got it around 1970 and we used it for allmost 40 years, upgrading it as it was necessary. "Naked" Grippen or Eurofighter are at the level where the Mig-21 was in 1960/70 (from the point of wiev of their developpment). F16 block 52 is at the level where Mig-21 was in the 90's, with the Lancer upgrade. It may not be obsolete today, but it will become obsolete much sooner than iths competitors, and we cannot afford to buy new aircraft every 10 years, not at these prices anyway.

Well, I had the same in mind. And buying "Eurofighter" may lead to closer relations with the big players in the European Union. The special helmet used by the pilots of the "Eurofighter" was copied by the American designers of the latest U.S. fighter, the F-22 Raptor.

This matter with F-16 looks to me like another "tzeapa" - to use a word introduced by Iamandi. As he wrote, maybe the biggest up-to-date.
"Guina" wrote:

...And "Radub" wrote:

In the past we were in a system of alliances who seemed safe and sound, and seemed to last for ever. However, they collapsed in 1940, and we remained alone against all neighbors (excepting Yugoslavia).
But I don't think the history will repeat. Even though NATO will not last for ever, it will last enough to the days when F-16 will be a photo in the history books.
I don't see Ukraine or Russia invading us (they hate each other much more than they may dislike Romania), and if Russia will control Ukraine one day (by politics or by military invasion) I am confident that Romania may get military equipment as emergency help. If Romania will have to take part in future big wars as a member of NATO, it can buy weaponry THEN, not now.

This post has been edited by Florin on May 22, 2008 05:10 pm

The F16 Block 52 flies higher, faster, further, and carries more than a Mig21! Do you remember that joke about the guy in a Trabant who was overtaken by a Mercedes, thought he was stopped and tried to get out of his moving car? You just did that with aircraft!

Seriously now, do your homework!

Google the performance/specifications of the F16 Block 52 and then compare that to the performance of whatever you want, be it Eurofighter, Rafale, Grippen or if you really want, the MiG21.

The F16 Block 52 is one of the best aircraft available today.

The F16 is far from the end of its career. F16 is continuously evolving and improving.
This current version of the F16 is at the cutting edge of technology.
Just like a current version of the Volkswagen Golf bears no resemblance to the first version of the Golf, the F16 Block 52 bears no similarity to the original F16.

All you need to know about the F16 http://www.f-16.net/
Block 52 http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on May 22, 2008 06:06 pm

The F16 Block 52 flies higher, faster, further, and carries more than a Mig21! Do you remember that joke about the guy in a Trabant who was overtaken by a Mercedes, thought he was stopped and tried to get out of his moving car? You just did that with aircraft!

Seriously now, do your homework!

Google the performance/specifications of the F16 Block 52 and then compare that to the performance of whatever you want, be it Eurofighter, Rafale, Grippen or if you really want, the MiG21.

The F16 Block 52 is one of the best aircraft available today.

The F16 is far from the end of its career. F16 is continuously evolving and improving.
This current version of the F16 is at the cutting edge of technology.
Just like a current version of the Volkswagen Golf bears no resemblance to the first version of the Golf, the F16 Block 52 bears no similarity to the original F16.

All you need to know about the F16 http://www.f-16.net/
Block 52 http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html

Radu

F16 is indeed a good aircraft. But maybe not quite right for Romania right now.

It is more expensive than the equivalent numbers of Gripens, needs concrete runaways, and is expensive to service and run in comparison. Gripen is more suitable especially when run in the Sweadish mode of operation - located all over the country and using roads as runways. This would give an enormous advantage to RoAF...

With only 2 fighter bases, the entire RoAF could be rendered useless in 2 strikes.

And there is no explication yet why this deal (24 new and 24 old) is considerably more expensive than the 48 brand new F16s Poland payed for.

I don't understand the choice of the government to refuse the offset offered by Sweden which means many components if not the entire assembly could be done locally.

Let's not forget the refused deal with Bell helicopter for the helicopter plant in Brasov - Bell even found clients for the Cobra (for the Turkish Army) and the deal still didn't go through. Now owned partially by Eurocopter there is not much activity there.

F16 is good if there is some concrete evidence that a good deal could be done on F35, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Gripen makes more sense, Typhoon and Rafale are too expensive...

Hi Florin,
You say that if our country is in danger we can buy the the planes THEN ,we dont need to buy now.I'm sure you know that a F 16 is not a M16 that you buy and use it imediately, .by the time you got the infrastructure and trained pilots the russian army hit "Hai sa-tzi arat Bucurestiul noaptea" will be passe(russian is just an example it could be anyone)In '73 the Israelis got emergency Phantoms and Skyhawks (which saved the day for them) but they had everything ready.
What I'm trying to say that such a decision is,first of all a POLITICAL decision.Lets imagine that we are in the midst of a conflict and we need urgentlysome 50 Grippens to replace the losses.The Sweds galantly will ofer us half of their Air Force planes? Oh,they will take an order for 50 new planes which will be ready in 2 ears.! Same goes for Eurofighter.As for Rafale,the french they conveiently prefer their own interes,as history has proved.On the other side,the americans NEVER had laid down an ally even when it did not suit an american interes (see Taiwan) And they have plenty of F 16s in storage.I know that is very fasionable to be anti-american,especialy by those that owe their existence to them but for once we have to be farsighted.
As for NATO,whithout US will be just North Atlantic Talking Organisation

[edited by admin]

Ok, "Guina", I bow toward your point that we should better have some modern airplanes before it may be too late. Considering this, I still think that for Romania it would be better to buy the "Eurofighter". The reasons were previously mentioned by me and by others. Nevertheless, my opinion does not matter too much, so I spare my energy for now.

Florin,
Your opinion matters as any opinion of us all.As for sparing the energy,you are right,lets go to sleep!
Cheers,Dan

guina and Radub, overall I agree with you, but why 24/24 and not 30 new or 48 new? And why this price if 24 are part of the excess defense articles?

when it comes to farsightedness, I agree with Florin though. With 4 million+ people working abroad (at a time when not all Western EU members have opened the door to Romanian workers!), with ageing and shrinking democraphics, this talk about expensive fighter jets is like "ce-i lipseste chelului".

p.s. which of the jets are more fuel efficient, if there is such a thing?

take care all

This post has been edited by Imperialist on May 22, 2008 10:26 pm

guina,

Such gross generalizations, the likes of which I deleted from your post, are not welcomed on this forum.

OK

Hi Imp,
Of course new planes are preferable! So why some second hand ones?Well ,in your second paragraf,you provided the answer.Lets hope we'll never have to use them exept for military parades
D.

The F16 Block 52 flies higher, faster, further, and carries more than a Mig21! Do you remember that joke about the guy in a Trabant who was overtaken by a Mercedes, thought he was stopped and tried to get out of his moving car? You just did that with aircraft!

Seriously now, do your homework!

NO, No, No! You didn't understand what I said! I didn't compare the performance of F16 and MiG 21, but their development cycle. F16 in 2008 (just like Mig 21 in 1990) has allready suffered a large number of upgrades, so there is no more room for improvement, unlike Grippen or Rafale. F16 may be very competitive now, it may continue to evolve for another 5-10 years, but Grippen or Rafale will continue to evolve for another 30-40 years.
You act like a sales representative for Lokheed-Martin

And just to be clear: I am NOT anti-american, only anti american wheapons.

You mean you are against the weapons that where actually battle tested?

Guys you should check the links/google for the real price of the Gripen / how expensive they are ... Polish F16 deal was cheaper including the weapons than what had been offered by Saab/Bae without any kind of weapons.