What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?

Wait a minute! We'll have the same number of planes as Denmark? That's really odd... Where did you get these figures?

Neither a pleonasm nor a tautology... The Irish are not known for their "stubbornness", well, at least not as a "cliche" anyway. They are known as the "Fighting Irish" or for their good "Craic agus ceol" (good fun and music).
But that has no bearing on what we are talking about here.
Radu

OK Stefan Dabapuscu, the question was whether any nation uses (present tense) a number of aircraft at the same time for similar roles.

You are right, the Polish use the MiG29 and the Su22 as well as the F16.

You are wrong, Thailand does not yet have the Gripen in their hangars.

That only proves what I already said, that many air forces use a variety of aircraft for similar roles, as well as the other thing I said, respectively that I do not see any problem with anyone using both the Gripen and the F16 at the same time if the have the cash to splash.

Radu

Not really - it just proves they aren't ready to change them for various reasons (including political and financiar ones)!
As for the Irish thing, it was a joke, because it seems to me you're sometimes impermeable to arguments, not any other reason for it.
One of the reasons (IMO) for the "disproportion" between Gripen and F16 is the provenience: who would a country rather buy from: Sweden or the Universal Policeman, the one-and-only superpower, the most advanced nation etc etc etc ad nauseam? Another could be the sheer manufacturing capacity: how many Grippens could SAAB build in an average year and how many F16 could Lockheed Martin?

I have very strong beliefs, indeed. That does not make me stubborn. If I know something to be right, I will uphold it. If others may have different opinions about what "right" is, that is not my problem. Believe me, I would rather have you believe I was "stubborn" instead of "highly suggestible" and "easily led"
I also admit it when I am wrong, and I am wrong often.
Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on March 07, 2009 12:02 pm

You mean it's better to be "pig-headed" than "easy to convince"? It's your oppinion and you live in afree country, as well BTW, what planes does the Eireann Air Force (or whatever the name is...) possess? Probably not Irish, anyway, nor British!

I have no idea what you are talking about... Who is "pig-headed" and who is "easy to convince", where did you get these two "labels" and in what "Bizarro World" are they the only two "choices"?

Is that a feeble attempt at getting a reaction? Are you so desperate for attention? Play the ball not the player.

I fail to see what relevance or bearing the Irish Air Corps has on this discussion and why do you ask me it. Google it.

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on March 07, 2009 04:59 pm

Let's put the difference in numbers in another light:
F16 is sold from 1978 whereas Gripen "only" since 1997. The countries which signed contracts for new F16's after 1997 were Poland (48), Marocco (24), Oman (12), E.A.U. (80) and Chile (10). Only five countries, of which three are not really democracies. Only 58 F16 block 52 new were sold after 1997 to new "operators" democratic countries. The others until 4.600 (if this really is the figure... were either commanded before 1997 or commanded by those who previously owned older models (Greece, Turkey, S. Korea etc.)
(courtesy of STI)

This post has been edited by MMM on March 08, 2009 01:41 pm

This is highly misleading and a blatant case of cheap misinformation.

Today's F16 is not the same aircraft as the 1978 model. The current model is significantly (if not completely) different from the 1978 model. See the differences here http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions.html

I fail to see what "democracy" has to do with the sale/purchase of weapons.

Wow, 4600 F16s sold so far? Whichever way you look at it, that is impressive. How many Gripens were sold outside Sweden?

Radu

1. The "democracy" factor is clear: USA supports (semi) dictatorial regimes and they buy planes.
2. I fail to see the "difference factor", as we talk about the same manufacturer, right? Plus, the versions don't seem that radically different.

In reality they are only 2 big version of F16: F16 A/B( block 1,5,10,15 and 20) and F16 C/D (block 25,30/32,40/42 and 50/52). Block 30/32 was the first block of F-16s affected by the Alternative Fighter Engine project under which aircraft were fitted with the traditional Pratt & Whitney engines or, for the first time, the General Electric F110-GE-100. From this point on, blocks ending in "0" (e.g., Block 30) are powered by GE, and blocks ending in "2" (e.g., Block 32) are fitted with Pratt & Whitney engines.
This means that all the block 1,5,10,15 can be upgraded to block 20, and all block 30,40 and 32,42 can be upgraded to block 50 or 52.Further F16 A/B can be upgraded to C/D standard(block 50) with MLU (Mid-Life Update).

Gripen foreign sale:
-Czech Air Force: 14 Gripen
-Hungarian Air Force: 14 Gripens
-South African Air Force: 26 Gripen
-Royal Thai Air Force 12 Gripen

Your point 1 - this is not the subject of this thread and maybe even this forum (it may belong to General Discussion maybe?).

Your point 2 - Volkswagen just launched a new Golf. The first Volkswagen Golf appeared in the 70s. Are Golf selling a 70s car? Ford just released a Fiesta. But the Fiesta was out in the 70s. Are Ford selling an 70s car? Volkswagen released a Beetle. But the Beetle was made in the 40s? Are they selling a 40s car? SAme with the Mini. The USAF still use the B52. But the B52 is a 50s plane. Are they using a 50s plane? Many airlines use Boeing 737. But the 737 is a 60s plane. Is it the same plane?

Just in case you wonedered, the answer is NO! All of the above went through successive (and successful) upgrades. Each upgrade made it better, different, and in some cases a completely different thing altogether.

Successful designs are always a perennial classic - a "good design" will always be just "right". Some things are so "right" that they will always be good for the job. They may need a tweaking, but they are still basically sound. In that context, saying "we talk about the same manufacturer, right? Plus, the versions don't seem that radically different" sounds kind of silly does it not? Same applies to the F16. By the way, the versions ARE radically different.

Anyway, let us not talk about which aircraft sold in more numbers, I think that it is plainly and clearly obvious which is more commercially successful.
Let us compare the performance of the aircraft and see which is faster, stronger and can carry more.

Radu

Ok then... although the total number of 737's is being counted since the very first model; the same with cars, but I'm getting tired to argue. BTW, I'm definitely not a SAAB salesman, no more than you are of Lockheed
The real fact is that the two planes are comparable from the most points of view. Let's do the comparison from the price and other data which do not clearly favour F16.

This post has been edited by MMM on March 09, 2009 05:42 pm

RaduB comparing VW Golf generation with F16 generation is cleary wrong: you can not upgrade a Golf 1 to an Golf 6, but you can upgrade a block 25 to block 50 standard,or a block 1 to block 20. F16 block 1 and F16 block 50 is 90% the same plane. golf 1 with golf 6 have only the name in common.

This post has been edited by STI on March 08, 2009 09:20 pm

MMM, you said: "The real fact is that the two planes are camparable from the most points of view." Comparable yes, but not similar. Massive difference!

Then you said: "Let's do the comparison from the price and other data which do not clearly favour F16." NO! Let us compare everything, not just the handicaps. Let us make it as fair as possible. Compare price, performance, capabilities, everything. Put everything on the table and then let the figures speak. So far all we get is opinions. Enough of that. Let us gather the facts and let the facts speak. Gather all the figures you can get on the Gripen and F16 and then let us comparte them.

STI, you said: "you can not upgrade a Golf 1 to an Golf 6" Yes you can, but it involves major reconstuction.
The you said. "but you can upgrade a block 25 to block 50 standard,or a block 1 to block 20." No, you can't without major reconstruction. After that you said: "F16 block 1 and F16 block 50 is 90% the same plane." Nope, it is not so. The latest version has more composite materials, a larger engine, completely different electronic suite and can carry more weapons of a larger variety. In the end you said: "golf 1 with golf 6 have only the name in common." Same with F16. In this thread, right above, you copied and pasted a lot of information from www.f-16.net (without crediting it). How come you skipped the page that shows the immense difference between Block 1 and Block 52? Have a look again before you say that I am biased: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions.html

Allow me to quote (courtesy of F-16.net) I highlighted some figures, which according to you should be the same:

Block 1 Specifications from http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html
Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan, rated at 12,240 lb.s.t. dry, 14,670 lb.s.t. full military, and 23,830 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

Maximum speed: Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet. Service ceiling 55,000 feet. Maximum range 2400 miles. Initial climb rate 62,000 feet per minute.

Dimensions: wingspan 32 feet 9 1/2 inches, length 49 feet 3 1/2 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.

Weights: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.

Block 52 Specifications from http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html
Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's) .

Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.

Weights: 18,238 pounds empty, 26,463 pounds normal loaded (air-to-air mission), 42,300 pounds maximum takeoff.

They are not really the same. Stop trying to bamboozle me. I can read too. Now, show me the figures for the Gripen.

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on March 08, 2009 10:13 pm