Map: 'Romania' south of Bulgaria?

[Dénes]

I just found an interesting map of the so-called 'Greater Rumania', as seen by the Iron Guard (I didn't want to open a new thread just for this map):

[Indrid]

is that the shadow of Codreanu over Romania?

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

is that the shadow of Codreanu over Romania?

I believe it is.

Could someone tell from this map what "regions" the legion thought belonged to Romania? The map seems to show a Romania that was bigger than even the "Romania Mare" of the 1920's.
Just curious to know what these people were thinking.

A couple of interesting things about the depiction of the map. The symbolism in the map is pretty cool. Romania seems to be resting on the shoulders of farmers and workers, but this group of people also looks like a field of wheat, denoting the agricultural roots of the country.
Furthermore, the 2 "guards" situated on the east and west of the country represent a peasant and a worker. Ironically, however, please note how one of them is holding a sickle, while the other holds a hammer. "Hammer and sickle", get it? I doubt they intended it to symbolize that.

[dragos]

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Furthermore, the 2 \"guards\" situated on the east and west of the country represent a peasant and a worker. Ironically, however, please note how one of them is holding a sickle, while the other holds a hammer. \"Hammer and sickle\", get it?

The peasant is holding a scythe, not a sickle. The sickle has short handle, to be used with only one hand.

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

The peasant is holding a scythe, not a sickle. The sickle has short handle, to be used with only one hand.

I know, still, you have to admit it's close enough. It's still pretty funny.

[Indrid]

how old is this map? concerning the dates, 1924 the year of the birth of the movement and 1937 the year when Codreanu was shot ( i believe). so it is more symbolic,maybe....

[Dénes]

QUOTE

Could someone tell from this map what \"regions\" the legion thought belonged to Romania?  The map seems to show a Romania that was bigger than even the \"Romania Mare\" of the 1920's. Just curious to know what these people were thinking.

I believe the map includes all territories mentioned in the Alba Iulia Proclamation of December 1918 (see copy in another thread), namely besides Transylvania, the whole Banat and 'the Hungarian Land' that spans up to the Tisza River. Therefore this is the actual territory claimed on Dec. 1, 1918 for the so-called 'Greater Rumania'.

[johnny_bi]

"As far as the Romanians were concerned, the frontiers of 1918 -1920 were far from encompas­sing: more than two million were many of them in frontier zones, both to the west and to the east, but also as enclaves in farther territories. The number of Romanians who remained in Hungary after the tracing of the Romanian-Hungarian frontier is put at 250,000 in the Hungarian Tisza Plain alone.

This figure results from the calculations made upon the data supplied by the post-bellum statistics, as well as on other testimonies publish­ed in that country(Hungary).2

One of the very few Romanian authors who studied the Romanian phenomenon in post-war Hungary, loan Georgescu, admits the total figure of 250,000 Romanians.3 Petre Barbulescu, in his recent book The Drama of National Minorities in Hungary, agrees with the same figure of 250,000 Romanians in post-war Hungary, based on calculations that considered the figures pre­sented by various sources 4. Some Romanian authors circulated quite different figures in the 1930s and 1940s, obviously considering only the Romanians who lived in compact groups in the frontier zones and without having the possibility to check those data: Onisifor Ghibu, for instance, shows that after the 1918 Union, an important number of Romanians still had to remain under foreign rule. This is what happened to the about one million Romanians scattered on the other side of the Dniester, in Russia. . ., the 50,000 Romanians who remained in the Czechoslovak Republic, the 100,000 Romanians who remained in Hungary, the 800,000 Romanians who remain­ed in Yugoslavia (Banatans, Timoc residents and Macedonians), the 10,000 ones in Albania and the 100,000 ones in Bulgaria...”5. Analyzing the problems of the Romanian and Hungarian ethnics after 1918, gives data about the compact Romanian population in the north-western part of Hungary, taken from works by known Hun­garian authors.6 But, irrespective of the bigger or smaller differences between the figures circu­lated by various authors, the phenomenon of the shrinking of the Romanian national minority in Hungary to the current level of some 25,000 is a fact. On the other hand, while statistics, even adjusted, record figures, they do not supply any information about the causes of the pheno­menon.
As far as the Romanians were concerned, the frontiers of 1918 -1920 were far from encompas­sing: more than two million were many of them in frontier zones, both to the west and to the east, but also as enclaves in farther territories. The number of Romanians who remained in Hungary after the tracing of the Romanian-Hungarian frontier is put at 250,000 in the Hungarian Tisza Plain alone.

This figure results from the calculations made upon the data supplied by the post-bellum statistics, as well as on other testimonies publish­ed in that country.2

One of the very few Romanian authors who studied the Romanian phenomenon in post-war Hungary, loan Georgescu, admits the total figure of 250,000 Romanians.3 Petre Barbulescu, in his recent book The Drama of National Minorities in Hungary, agrees with the same figure of 250,000 Romanians in post-war Hungary, based on calculations that considered the figures pre­sented by various sources 4. Some Romanian authors circulated quite different figures in the 1930s and 1940s, obviously considering only the Romanians who lived in compact groups in the frontier zones and without having the possibility to check those data: Onisifor Ghibu, for instance, shows that after the 1918 Union, an important number of Romanians still had to remain under foreign rule. This is what happened to the about one million Romanians scattered on the other side of the Dniester, in Russia. . ., the 50,000 Romanians who remained in the Czechoslovak Republic, the 100,000 Romanians who remained in Hungary, the 800,000 Romanians who remain­ed in Yugoslavia (Banatans, Timoc residents and Macedonians), the 10,000 ones in Albania and the 100,000 ones in Bulgaria...”5. Analyzing the problems of the Romanian and Hungarian ethnics after 1918, gives data about the compact Romanian population in the north-western part of Hungary, taken from works by known Hun­garian authors.6"

Taken from http://www.romanii.ro/NewSite/The%20Romani...Hungary%20.html

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

I just found an interesting map of the so-called 'Greater Rumania', as seen by the Iron Guard

Wow that's pretty impressive ! What's that tiny elongated country touching the Romanian Empire on the left, could it be Portugal ?

[Dénes]

Below are the official data on Rumanian ethnics in Hungary, from 1880 to 1990, based on the official census data:

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Year/ Total number of Rumanian ethnics in Hungary (from 1920, the current territory of Hungary)/ Percentage --------------------------------------------------   1880   2 403 041   17,5%     1890   2 589 066   17,1%     1900   2 789 559   16,6%     1910   2 948 186   16,1%     1920   23 695   0,3%     1930   16 221   0,2%     1941 [without Northern Transylvania, reattached to Hungary in 1940] 14 142   0,2%     1949   14 713   0,2%     1960   15 787   0,2%     1970   12 624   0,1%     1980   10 141   0,1%     1990   10 740   0,1%

Of course, these numbers represent only the persons who openly identified themselves as Rumanians. Certainly, there were others, too, who declared themselves as Hungarians.
Based on religion, it's estimated that approx. 50,000 Rumanians lived in current territory of Hungary in 1920, thus approx. double the official data [see article written by Vasile Stoica, in 'Graiul Românesc' magazine, 1928, No. 10].

The mentioned 250,000 figure appears to be a gross overestimation, when compared to the above data.

[johnny_bi]

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The mentioned 250,000 figure appears to be a gross overestimation, when compared to the above data.

...or maybe not...

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1990   10 740   0,1%

According to http://www.legacyrus.com/RuthenianVillage/...yMinorities.htm there are about some 20-25.000 Romanians...:
"Today, the number of persons belonging to the Romanian minority is estimated by the minority organisations and the Vicariate of the Orthodox Romanian Church of Hungary to be 20,000 - 25,000." - this data is from "Report No. J/3670 of the Government of the Republic of Hungary to the National Assembly on the situation of the national and ethnic minorities living in the Republic of Hungary"

So , the data you mention are also hard to be credible...

[Dénes]

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...or maybe not...

Johnny, if you consider the official census data unreliable, then what would you consider reliable enough? The estimates of certain persons? History should be an exact science, relying mainly on official data.

With the same logic, should then we consider the official Rumanian census data also similarly unreliable? If yes, then what'd you say, how many Hungarians are currently in Rumania instead of the approx. 1,700,000 counted recently? Double the number? Or even 10 times more, using the similarity in claims you cited and apparently you consider real?

QUOTE

According to http://www.legacyrus.com/RuthenianVillage/...yMinorities.htm there are about some 20-25.000 Romanians...:

That could very well be and fits the pattern I have shown in my previous post, i.e. the real total number of Rumanians could be double the actual census data, if we also include persons of Rumanian origin who declared themselves Hungarians, but kept their religion.

[Florin]

Denes,

Thank you for the interesting map.
(I am talking about the old one. You posted 2 maps.)
As a personal opinion, which may be wrong, maybe the author seems to refuse to accept the existence of the Ottoman Empire. A correct scientist should show simply "The Ottoman Empire", and not "Bulgaria" + "Romania" + "Turkey in Asia" + etc.
The map author seems a little confused about the political situation of his time, but he knew that once upon a time Constantinopole was the capital of the Roman Empire.

Do you know about all that talking about the maps of Piri Reis, the Turkish admiral who was in charge with the Turkish fleet before 1512? In Romania I read pages and pages about how his maps from 1500 show Antarctica.
Years later, I saw the original maps in Washington DC, accessible to the public.
There is a land shown on those maps in the south of the Atlantic Ocean, but very unclear, and on one of the maps is like a "L", where South America (vertical of the "L") continues without interruption with Antarctica.

My point is: we still see mistakes or wrong willing interpretations on the maps made today, so why we should be surprised about something puzzling on a map made 200 years ago?

Florin

[Florin]

QUOTE

QUOTE I just found an interesting map of the so-called 'Greater Rumania', as seen by the Iron Guard Wow that's pretty impressive ! What's that tiny elongated country touching the Romanian Empire on the left, could it be Portugal ?

Yeah, good joke... :|
But you are entitled to make fun. If you forget about "Portugal", which shouldn't be added there, the rest is Romania as it was until June 26, 1940.

By the way, guys:

I have a whole geographical Atlas from 1935, with very interesting maps showing Romania and the rest of the world. For Romania, you can see the percentage of land good for agriculture in each county, the density of population, and so on. It is so sad to see that Bessarabia had the counties with the highest percent of land good for agriculture, and some of the counties most populated in the country.
I have a scanner, but I still don't know how Denes or other people here post images.
Regards,
Florin

[Alexandru H.]

You upload the photos into a web server that allows you direct linking. The best is at http://www.lycos.co.uk ... you can put 50 MB! of photos in it!!!

after you register and upload them through their own uploader or a simple free one (like CuteFtp or FtpCommander), post the picture using the IMG tag, like this:

{IMG}members.lycos.co.uk/accountname/photoname.jpg{/IMG}, where { and } are [ and ]

Hope this helps!!!