Romanian aces of WWI

[Victor]

Prof. Valeriu Avram is practically the authority regarding early and WWI Romanian aviation history.

[Carol I]

QUOTE

I will post an excerpt from the article later, so that everybody can judge.

I was not questioning anyone's statements, but only trying to put all the information together. And I guess you agree that this is not at all easy. Things are complicated even more by the fact that during WWI Romania still used the Julian calendar and therefore dates are not always easy to pinpoint in time. Anyhow, I am looking forward to seeing the article. Thanks.

QUOTE

See that victories were counted for shooting down baloons, too.

Yes, this is quite true and from this point of view Romania did not do anything different from the other belligerent countries. And it may very well be that on that particular date (25.10/07.11), Muntenescu scored two victories in one encounter in the morning and then one more in the afternoon (or the other way around). The question is whether the 25 October encounter quoted in the early article is indeed the same as the 7 November encounter from the newer one. However, if both dates are given according to the same calendar, then Muntenescu scored 5 victories in total and hence he must be considered a WWI Romanian ace.

[Carol I]

QUOTE

Prof. Valeriu Avram is practically the authority regarding early and WWI Romanian aviation history.

I have indeed seen his name many times and this is why I am taking his statements very seriously into consideration. I wonder what his sources of information are: army records, official decrees, contemporary newspapers...

Do you happen to know how were the records regarding the aerial victories of the Romanian pilots kept at that time? Did the contemporary newspapers give regularly any trustworthy details about the exploits of the allied pilots on the Romanian front?

[Dénes]

Dr. Valeriu Avram - whom I know very well - is indeed the most knowledgeable historian on W.W. 1 Rumanian aviation matters. He is also the sole Rumanian Dr. in the science of history who wrote his thesis on aviation.

He studied extensively the military and civilian archives and takes most of his information from original documents. However, as everyone, he is not always 100% error free and sometimes a statement contradicts the other. This is also due to the fact that often official documents contradict one another.

I did not study W.W. 1 era ARR victory claims, but I know from my personal experience in studying W.W. 2 era ARR victory claims that there are many contradictions, gaps and errors in official documents dealing with te topic. Not to mention the pilots' personal recollections, which often complicates matters, rather than simplify them.
Therefore, as any historian, professional and amateur alike, I hava had to use occasionally the so-called 'educated guess' when comes to some 'final' results and conclusions. However, that's an integral part of the 'history business'.

[dragos]

The article in discussion reads:

QUOTE

La 7 noiembrie 1917, plutonierul pilot Ioan Muntenescu a obtinut trei victorii aeriene ceea ce reprezinta o mare performanta pentru aviatia romana in anii Razboiului de reintregire. In zilele de 11, 18 si 23 noiembrie 1917, aviatorii Carol Paukert, sublocotenentul Dumitrescu, plutonierul Andrei Sisu si sublocotenentul Egon Nasta reuseau patru victorii aeriene. Ultima victorie aeriana a fost inscrisa in cartea de aur a aviatiei romane de sublocotenentul Dumitru Crasnaru 24.

The footnote leads to:

24. "Monitorul Oficial" nr. 279 din 9 decembrie 1930, Partea I, p. 10.310.

[Victor]

QUOTE

The footnote leads to: 24. \"Monitorul Oficial\" nr. 279 din 9 decembrie 1930, Partea I, p. 10.310.

So the victories were taken out of the decree awarding the Victoria Aeronautica Order to several Romanian WWI aviators.

[Carol I]

Thanks Dénes for the suggestions.

By the way, in Romanian pilots in '20 you mentioned the 1984 book Istoria Aviatiei Române by a group of authors. Does this book contain any information regarding the victories and losses of the Romanian/allied airmen during WWI? Does it go into details? Thanks.

[Carol I]

QUOTE

The article in discussion reads: La 7 noiembrie 1917, plutonierul pilot Ioan Muntenescu a obtinut trei victorii aeriene ceea ce reprezinta o mare performanta pentru aviatia romana in anii Razboiului de reintregire. In zilele de 11, 18 si 23 noiembrie 1917, aviatorii Carol Paukert, sublocotenentul Dumitrescu, plutonierul Andrei Sisu si sublocotenentul Egon Nasta reuseau patru victorii aeriene. Ultima victorie aeriana a fost inscrisa in cartea de aur a aviatiei romane de sublocotenentul Dumitru Crasnaru [24]. The footnote leads to: 24. \"Monitorul Oficial\" nr. 279 din 9 decembrie 1930, Partea I, p. 10.310.

Thanks Dragos for the fragment from the original article.

[Klemen]

Zivjo guys!

Just out of curiosity, but does know anything about any Romanian aviators serving in the k.u.k. Air Service during the Great War 1914-1918.

lp,

Klemen

[Dénes]

There was at least one, Slt. av. Ioan Sava (Câmpineanu).
Reportedly, he became POW of the Russians, then joined the Rumanian Air Force in 1917, IIRC. He died in the early 1920s while testing a PROTO-1 prototype aircraft (data from my memory).

Zhively, :cheers:

Dénes

[Dénes]

There were quite a few ex-K.u.K. Fliegern who enlisted into ARR after W.W. 1, but the majority were German or Hungarian ethnics.

Dénes

[Klemen]

QUOTE

There were quite a few ex-K.u.K. Fliegern who enlisted into ARR after W.W. 1, but the majority were German or Hungarian ethnics.

Can you please Denes elaborate more on them? Can you serve us with names? I couldn't find any "Romanian" flyer among the Austro-Hungarian top ten aces. The closest to being a Romanian was Johann Lasi, but he is Hungarian from Slovakia, I think.

QUOTE

There was at least one, Slt. av. Ioan Sava (Câmpineanu). Reportedly, he became POW of the Russians, then joined the Rumanian Air Force in 1917, IIRC. He died in the early 1920s while testing a PROTO-1 prototype aircraft (data from my memory).

Were there any other? Any serving on the Italian Front with Brumowski, Fiala and Linke-Crawford? :roll:

Please let me know if you find any more names. OK? This is interesting and much unknown subject. :keep:

lp,

Klemen

[Dénes]

QUOTE

Can you please Denes elaborate more on them? Can you serve us with names?

I am at work now, so I cannot give you any details.

QUOTE

I couldn't find any \"Romanian\" flyer among the Austro-Hungarian top ten aces.

There were none. Generally speaking, there were very few Rumanian ethnic pilots in the k.u.k. Fliegertruppen.

QUOTE

The closest to being a Romanian was Johann Lasi, but he is Hungarian from Slovakia, I think.

I looked up this guy and apparently he was an "ace-in-a-day"! Reportedly, he shot down 5 Farmans on 22 Aug 1916, over the Skumbi Estuary (?, where is this place)? See: http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/austrhun/lasi.html

Dénes

[Klemen]

Zivjo Denes!

QUOTE

I am at work now, so I cannot give you any details.

When you will have time, no hurry.

QUOTE

There were none. Generally speaking, there were very few Rumanian ethnic pilots in the k.u.k. Fliegertruppen.

Do you know any of their personal stories. i.e. I mean did any of them left any writte stories about their time in WW1? Anyone of them who had particularly distinguished himself?

QUOTE

I looked up this guy and apparently he was an \"ace-in-a-day\"!

Yes I saw that too. He was a true Edward "Butch" O'Hare. :laugh:

QUOTE

! Reportedly, he shot down 5 Farmans on 22 Aug 1916, over the Skumbi Estuary (?, where is this place)? See:

This is probably the River of Shkumbin in Central Albania. The river flows from Ohrid Lake through Elbasan and ends up her journey in the Adriatic Sea at Divjakë. The aircraft were probably Italian since the Italian Army held the Allied frontline on Albanian Front.

Hope this helps.

lp,

Klemen

[Dénes]

This is what Csaba Becze wrote about Lasi's victories:
"The River Skumbi is in Albania and its' scores were shared (many times the collective scores were confirmed individually as a full kill)."