Romanian aces of WWI

On a single photo I found the identical style of painting the vertical stripes on the rudder as shown in the in-air Nieuport photo posted by Cantacuzino. However, this photo depicts a Voisin, which was used only in the early stages of the war in Rumania, certainly not in 1919.
Note the standard rudder colouring of the Farman, seen at right.

Gen. Dénes

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On a single photo of a crashed Rumanian Farman I found the standard blue-yellow-red rudder colouring, but what appears (still) French style wing cockades, with the centre circle being probably white.
A rarity, indeed.

Gen. Dénes

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Der Maresal , if I paint in photoshop a color profile of Ni-11 with pink cammo and Zanzibar national markings do you believe me ???
But not joking, do you have the B&W picture for that specific Ni-11 to believe if the profile is corect ? And how you are sure that the picture was made in september 1917 ( was written the data on the back or only night bad story source)
It's not easy to find corect cammo, marks and data for rom. planes in WWI so we should try hard to investigate and not the easy way ( foreign encyclopedia of WWI planes) will solve the issue.

Dan.

The picture coul'd not be so relevant for the issue with french marks in 1917. Becouse were only few Ni-17 ( as in your picture) used by rom. pilots in 1917 and the picture could be from 1919 or later when the marks were rom. blue yellow and red.
The only reason there are more photos with national marks (blue,yellow and red) is quite simple, in 1917 the romanian army was in difficult situation on moldavian front and not time to take pictures smiling near the planes . But the situation changed after 1918. So i think it was more easy to make picture begin with this year.
So how can you convince me that your picture with Ni-17 was made in 1917 ??
( any data on the back of the picture, or related to the pilot story in that picture)

As you can see we should dig more and not use only the pictures as reference for this issue without more details for that pictures ( if we have).

Below the picture of Slt. Craiu Vasile. ( from the book of Titus Axente-VasileCraiu)



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And below an artwork describing the escort mission of Ni-11 pilots Craiu with Tresch. (D.M. artwork)


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And a fragment from the same book ( Vasile Craiu-Titus Axinte) describing the escort mission of Slt. Craiu with Sgt.Tresch when probably the observer made that well known photos of Craiu plane.


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One of the confusion with the Ni-11 of Sgt.Tresch ( quated as Craiu plane) was the emblem on the fuselage ( the gold cross) wich was similar with"Ragina Maria cross "Craiu was decorated.
Below it'a picture with another french pilot Sgt.Bourgeois with the same cross ( but outlined) on his Ni-11 used on moldavian front.
( coll. Valeriu Avram)


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Der Maresal , if I paint in photoshop a color profile of Ni-11 with pink cammo and Zanzibar national markings do you believe me ???

Cantacuzino is correct. Colour profile drawings of airplanes (and other) are simply what they are: pretty pictures with no historical bearing. Personally, I would have not included any such colour airplane profiles in any of my books, had I not been coerced by the publishers.

Everyone can draw up nice colour profiles to his/her liking. No problem. The problem is however, when people start using them as historical proof, which they are clearly not. Only period documents and photos (and partly memoirs) are historic items and even interpreting them properly is a huge problem.

A bad practice, indeed.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 21, 2005 05:43 pm

Cantacuzino, I did not write that the picture of the Nie.17 I posted was taken in 1916/1917. Where did you see this?

All I wrote was that the enclosed photo is a sample of the typical painting of the Rumanian national markings in W.W. 1, as seen on dozens and dozens of period photos. Based on these period photos, it is certain that the occurance of French cockades worn on ARR warplanes was the exception, rather than the rule.
In my opinion, when dealing with history, one should not place too much emphasis on theory and logical deductions.

Your theory of not existing enough time to paint the yellow over the white in the French-style cockades is only a theory. The markings on such a small airplane could be repainted in a couple of hours, which certainly existed when there was no flying at all. Remember, most of these aiplanes were based on airfields, where mechanics with tools (and paint) were on duty.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 21, 2005 05:53 pm

Sorry Denes. I tought you post that picture to infirm my theory about 1917 french marks

Comm on Denes, the mechanics are order the paint ( Tamya, Humbroll) by internet and paint with a "Alex" airbrush between two german attacks.
Few people know that paint at that times were hard to find because Chemical industry were hard to find especially in Romania. And why do you think the romanians ( who had true love relations with France) were so nationalist in 1917 when the units were mixed ( rom.-french) to overpaint the french marks in the front of french pilots from the same unit, or do you think the mechanics did that during the nights. It is a theory of mine but has logical and practical sense.
Btw., if i am not corect what color should have the Ni-11 of Craiu in 1917 and tell me your point of view about this, considering the existing photos ( or you deny them).

I can hardly believe that regular yellow paint was unavailable, even in 1916/1917. I bet you even in Nea Mitica's corner store there was some yellow paint for sale. ANY yellow paint would do the job.
There is no need to be sarcastic, which misses the point (as I'm not a modeller, you know).

As for why painting the French markings over on ARR warplanes, so the airplane would wear Rumanian markings, one reason could be that the airplanes were the property of the Rumanian State and hence it should have been marked accordingly. This seems very plausible to me.

Finally, I did not comment at all on how Craiu's airplane should have actually looked like (check my previous posts), mainly because I did not study in depth W.W 1.
My comments were related exclusively to the national markings seen on wings and tail on ARR warplanes.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 24, 2005 04:59 pm

The most regular colorpaints you can find on that days were black and white because of the easy to find pigments ( zinc and carbon). Probably mechanics can find ( if had it money) in Bucharest ( unfortunetly occupied by germans in 1917).
Tell me if you are so specialist in paint -what easy to find pigment can be used for "ANY yellow" paint to do the job?

I am not sarcastic ( the joke was for everybody) and i'm not missed the point. You started like most of the aviation hystorians building plane kits as a child. But probably you gave up because you didn't find the yellow paint( Humbrol) to paint rom.national color marks.

Cheers,
Dan.