What's next?, next war Romanians could be part of

The reasons why Holland vetoed Romania's entry into Schengen were made clear and were not fabricated by them. They are serious problems that Romania needs to address. If Romania fixed all of those problems, it would benefit all Romanians.
It is like a teacher telling a lazy pupil he needs to work harder in order to graduate.
A boycott is the equivalent of that lazy pupil scratching the teacher's car.
Radu

And why Nederlands is the only öne who "teach us" how to behave? The others "teachers" are lazy, too?

Well, it is possible that Holland cares more than the others. Also, it is possible that Holland has more courage than the others.
But Holland is a partner in the EU. As a partner, it has the right to point out shortcomings. Everyone who ever worked in a team can tell of a situation when some team member did not perform to the best of standards or abilities and the other team members HAD to tell the poor-performing team member to clean up his/her act. This is the same.

The truth of the matter is that Romania has serious problems and needs to address them. And Romanians know that. Romanians face that every day. The authorities are flipping their skirts over the head in an attempt to maintain the status quo and avoid responsibility. Of course it is easier for the president to say that it is all Holland's fault. That takes little effort. Correcting the problems takes a lot of effort and he is not willing (or able) to provide it. In fact, it is in the interest of all Romanians to demand that their politicians listen to Holland's demands.

Radu

It is possible... it is possible... Too much "it is possible." When we will say it is sure?

Let me tell what it is sure. It is sure that Holland change the rules during the game, or that is not "fair play".

Another thing, you try to tell that economics doesn't matter, Holland didn't act motivate by the importance of lossing some earnings in Rotterdam because Constanta will be an alternative to entrance on Rhin - Maine - Danube water corridor?

You can choose to believe that Romania is perfect in every possible way and Holland is inventing lies about corruption, traficking and crime in Romania.
But the sad truth is that Romania really MUST correct ALL of those problems pointed out by Holland (even without Schengen).

That thing about Constanta competing with Rotterdam is hilarious and stupid. If that was the case, it would have happened already, decades ago, before EU or Schengen was even imagined. Why would any ship come from the Meditteranean through the Dardanelles, Bosphorus, drop something in Constanta and then schlepp stuff slowly up the river through many nations, each with their own taxes and customs when they can go straight through the Gibraltar to Rotterdam? Rotterdam is big because it brings in a lot of trade (ore, precious metals and minerals, spices, chocolate, coffee, tea, sugar, textiles) from former Dutch colonies, it is efficient and suitably located to quickly serve the heart of Europen trade on it doostep. Rotterdam is right next to Germany and France, the engines of European economy. It is also close to the British isles (three hours by boat from London), Scandinavia and only a few hours from Northern Spain. Why would anyone who wants to do trade with any of these nations go to Constanta? Bringing trade through Constanta is the equivalent of getting a haircut from a barber sticking his hand up your trousers then up under your shirt.

I grew up in Galati by the Danube. Even in the days when Romania was part of a trade union with immediate neighbours sharing the Danube waterways such as Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Slovakia, there was scant trade up the Danube and there were no Dutch stopping us.

Whichever you look at it, Rotterdam fearing Constanta is simply ridiculous. The Romanians must wake up (as in the anthem) and demand that their politicians fix those problems pointed out by Holland. Only after they fix those problems and Holland still vetoes, you can rightly accuse Holand of malice.

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on April 15, 2012 02:29 pm

To pretend that Romania is bad and Holland is good, about those issues, is from their part,pure hipocrisy.

About Rotterdam and Constanta, there are some aspects you forgot. First, naval transport is cheaper, second, the shortest way from China to Central Europe is not Rotterdam, but Constanta is. Third, when Bulgaria and Romania will be in Schengen, taxes will be paid like in Schengen, not at every frontier.

Never mind other countries, Romania has problems that must be addressed.

Rotterdam has nothing to fear from Constanta.
A single ULCC can bring 10.000 containers into Rotterdam in one go. You need barges to go up the Danube (and that is going upstream, slowly). Even if you managed to squeeze 100 containers one one barge, it would take 100 barges to match that kind of volume - but sadly, barges must stay small becasue the Danube is quite narrow and windy, so you may be able to put about 20 containers on one barge. Shifting so many containers frome one large ship to barges would take a long time. Then you must consider that these containers will have to be transferred by truck between rivers, again taking a considerable amount of time and effort.

This simply makes no sense. Whoever devised that "theory" has never seen the Danube or a barge in his life. It is easy to look at a map and dream such "solutions". For example, in Bram Stoker's Dracula, Dracula goes up the Siret to his castle in Transylvania on a seaworthy sail boat (picture Bricul Mircea going up the Siret ). Well, as I said, I lived in Galati, I know Siret. and I know that there is no way you can take a seaworthy sailboat of any kind up the river, never mind reach Transylvania. This is simply because Bram Stoker looked at a map and thought that such a feat would be possible. Whoever devised that "theory" suffers from the same chronic lack of knowledge.

If Constanta was so perfect for trade, it would have been used for that already.

Radu

That's some sloppy analysis from Mr. Negrea, IMO.

Incoming and outgoing shipping from and to Asia totaled 72 million tons in 2008 in Rotterdam, but it represented only 18% of the port's capacity.

Constanta theoretically has the capacity to handle 100 million tons per year.
In 2008 it handled 62 million tons, which was the peak level in 2004-2011:

http://www.portofconstantza.com/apmc/porta...generale&x=load

So even if Constanta were to work at full capacity, that would only mean it would divert 40-60 million tons worth of shipping from Rotterdam. Or some 10-14% of Rotterdam's capacity.

And then there are the obstacles that make that a big IF.

1. Congested Bosphorous strait.
2. Underdeveloped shipping potential on the Danube + possible congestion on the river (I'm not sure that breaking down a 165,000 TDW transport into 50-60 smaller ships is logistically desirable)
3. Poor(er) Romanian road and railway infrastructure.

These factors probably eliminate much of the time advantage that Constanta has over Rotterdam.

Bottomline, Constanta may divert shipping that would otherwise have went to Rotterdam, but is the theoretical amount really that threatening for the Dutch?

We should boycott Holland, just like that and just because (numa' aşa şi numa' d'aia)

Looking again at Cristian Negrea's map, I was struck by a sudden realisation: I saw that before!
During WW2, the Germans shipped a couple of submarines by that route to the Black Sea. Mr. Negrea must have seen that story and thought "well, if they can bring submarines down the Danube, surely we can bring cargo ships up the Danube too".
Well... You see... The Germans had to do that because the Gibraltar was closed by the British. They did not do that because it was easy or shorter. In fact, for large tracts of the route, the submarines were actually placed on heavy flatbed trailers and slowly dragged overland. It took a long time. It was not easy. Were it not for the war and the pressing need for submarines in the Black Sea, they would not have bothered.
But that situation no longer applies. The Gibraltar is now open. So, a ship coming from China can get to Roterdam through the Suez and Gibraltar in one stretch, no need to stop.
But one must not forget that a lot of trade into Rotterdam comes across the Atlantic from the Americas.
As for the shortest route from China to Wester Europe, that would be a rail line across Siberia.

There is one more thing that Mr Negrea forgot. He obviously knows little about the Danube. I can tell you a few facts:
- the Danube is fast. Going upstream is "thirsty" work and will cost a lot in fuel costs
- the Danube is not a steady volume of water. In the summers, in Galati, where it is the widest, it can be so shallow that large sand bank "islands" appear jn the middle. Sometimes, the ferry has to go a long way downstream and then a long way upstream to avoid them. This will seriously reduce the traffic.
- I saw the Danube freeze a number of times, sometimes completely making it impossible to travel, but often it creates large floating ice sheets that can hamper traffic.

The more I look at Mr. Negrea's theory, the more laughable it becomes. I understand that he needs to find a conspiracy theory in everything, but this time "se screme" too much.

Radu
u

This post has been edited by Radub on April 16, 2012 08:15 am

Schengen has nothing to do with frontier taxes. That is the EU common market, which already took care of it. Schengen it's just about eliminating frontier checks between member countries and shortening waiting time for trucks carrying goods between Schengen and non-Schengen countries or facilitating fast deployment for non-EU companies with European bases of operations within Schengen. The idea that Constanta is a threat to Rotterdam is completely wrong IMO and has nothing to do with the Netherlands' position on Romania's access to Schengen.

The Dutch stand is motivated mostly by the composition of the parliamentary majority. The anti-immigration party's support for the government is important, so they need to appease them from time to time. This is one of those times. After all it's much easier to pick on Eastern European immigration than to deal with the much more dangerous Islamic immigration.

Nevertheless, what the Dutch are saying is mostly true. Our state is very corrupt and our politicians don't really want to change anything about it. At least with this pressure on them they might be forced to do something. Sure, there are Dutch companies that make good profits in Romania taking advantage of this corrupt system. Some may say that this is hypocrisy, but we are not talking about relations between individuals, we are talking about politics and diplomacy, which have always been and will always be hypocritical. It is naive to expect honest and chivalrous behavior in inter-state relations. It's all about interests.

Personally I don't give 2 cents on Schengen membership. I, as an individual, would not have any great benefit from it. As an honest EU citizen I already have freedom of travel. The fact that I may wait 10-20 minutes in a queue for checking papers it's not a big deal. The fact that as a Schengen member Romania will have to host illegal Islamic immigrants caught trying to cross the Mediteranean to Spain, Italy or Greece doesn't give me any reason to be happy about it.

And what about internal Dutch situation? The PVV prty problem?

Holland is a democratic country where people are free to vote as they wish.
The voters voted that party in. At the next elections the voters may vote them out.

Can Romania criticise that? We have Romania Mare. Same kind of lunacy.

Radu

Yes, I think we can and should criticise that. PRM may be the same kind of lunacy but it has no seats in Parliament.

You missed the point entirely! PRM is identical in ideology and voters to PVV.
PRM had many deputies in the Romanian Parliament on a number of occasions and was even part of the Vacaroiu government in the early-nineties. CV Tudor even ran for president.
Then the Romanians had enough of their circus and voted them out.
That is exactly what I was talking about in relation to PVV. They are in now in government. They will eventually be kicked out, just like PRM.
Lunatics may be loud, but the sane majority eventually wins.
Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on April 16, 2012 12:35 pm