What's next?, next war Romanians could be part of

... All this because when they built the plants they were cheap enough to don't build the surrounding water stopping fence to be 4...5 meters higher.
And because as usual people forget their own history. There was a similar flood in Japan 1000 years ago, and it was mentioned in writing, but you know that most engineers don't have time for history ...

This post has been edited by Florin on August 21, 2013 02:39 am

I don't think that even a 100 metre tall wall would have stopped the water. The water would have come up through the sewers, around the sides of the wall, through the gate, etc. The sea level rose, all around.

What baffles me is that people simply refuse to understand that this was not a "nuclear incident". This is not carelssness. This is not human error. This is not failure of anything. This was a tsunami. Just in case this is hard to understand, here is what actually happened: http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/...unami-2011-vin/
There was nothing, no wall, no device, no prayer, no wizardry, no thing that anyone could have done, built or invoked to stop this. A cataclism of that kind is unstoppable. It is just bad news.

This spring I was in Japan and this is one thing we spoke about. You cannot understand how devastating that Tsunami was until you see what it did to EVEYTHING! There is immense damage, houses, busineses, graveyards, roads wiped out, tens of thousands of people dead, billions worth of damage. There is widespread toxic contamintion from a cocktail of chemicals (from factories, stores, etc) and fuel spillage (every petrol station was flooded as well as depots) that affect more people across a much larger area than radiation from Fukushima. That kind of contamination is actually a lot harder to contain and treat than radiation from Fukushima. In fact, radiation may actually be easier to control becasue it can be sensed/measured and measures can be taken to contain it. A field that is contaminated with chemicals and fuel will never be sensed/measured and will poison the food for decades.

Fukushima is just bad luck. Right now, there are two things that can be done:
1. Try to fix it/clean it as well as humanly possible.
2. Do nothing, just bury it, like the Russians did in Chernobyl.
The Japanese are doing the first and they MUST be commended for it. But... considering option 2, it seems that the world has not yet implode upon itself if you just do nothing. As a bird flies, Chernobyl is only 750 Km away from Bucharest (Budapest is about 675 Km away from Bucharest) and Romania is still standing.

By the way, when I spoke to Japanese people, they told me that Fukushima worries them a lot less than the North Korean nuclear capability. They say that at least they may be able to do something about Fukushima.

Radu

Good points, as usual.
Food for (hard) thought.

Gen. Dénes

I believe the Japanese will have to build massive sarcophagi too, just like the Russians did at Cernobal, after all that pouring of seawater cools down the three molten reactor cores.

The world did not end but a lot of people get cancer and blame it on smoking, eating habits or other stuff, completely oblivious to the possibility that they may have breathed in or ingested some radionuclides some years ago.

A distance of 750 km (Bucharest to Cernobal) looks brilliant if you live in Tokyo and Fukushima is just next door.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on August 21, 2013 05:36 pm

Maybe I should have been more specific. Like any design for nuclear plant, they predicted of course malfunctions resulting in the overheating of the nuclear fuel and of the cooling agent. They also predicted floods. That is why the plants were surrounded by water proof fences.

In case the coolant agent was overheating and the main controls could not do something about it, there were additional standby pumps powered by classical Diesel generators. These classical pumps with classical Diesel generators were big enough to handle the situation.
But because the fences were too short, the water spilled over and flooded the mechanical rooms containing the old style pumps and the old style Diesel generators, making them non operational.

I do not agree with Radu that this could not be prevented by design.
When a team of architects, electrical and mechanical engineers intend to build something, they get a topographic map for the area of construction. This map is created by the civil engineers. When the area is close to river or to the sea shore, you will see on it the "50 years flood line", "100 years flood line" or the "Historic flood line", the latter being either the line of worst flood recorded, either an interval accepted by convention, which in America may be the "100 years flood line". Well, for such a long history, I understand …
Returning to engineering, of course the factors having the money and the political power try to press the design toward the lesser of the floods – as long the local or national laws tolerate it.
Now, considering the engineering concept, which may not be the same target as that of the politician or the economist: If you build a residential multi-apartment, or a library, or a store, or even a school or hospital, OK, let’s go with the "100 years flood line". But if you build a nuclear plant, you should search the written records as deep in history as possible, or if this is not too useful, in young countries like America, Canada or Australia, you should ask the geologists what proofs they got regarding ancient floods. "Ancient" on a human scale, of course.

In that text written in Japan 1000 years ago it was mentioned how far the water advanced. You can calculate from that the height of the water at the peak of the flood. And from that you can get of course the height of the wall needed.

This post has been edited by Florin on August 22, 2013 05:17 am

Imperialist, radiation does not cause cancer. If that was the case, it would be just like poison gas, it would get everyone in the same way. If radiation caused cancer everyone in the Chernobyl area would get cancer, no exceptions, no reprieve. Kiev is very close to Cehernoby and it does not have a higher rate of cancer than anywhere else. Cancer has plagued all living things since immemorial time. It is not a new disease and it has many causes, most important of which is genetic. I lost family members and friends to cancer. I know that it is a lottery in which all odds are "ghinion".
And if "radiation causes cancer", what is the point of "radiotherapy"?
Many people do not understand radiation. Most do not even understand the difference between radiation and radioactivity. Most people, when they say "radiation" they mean "deochi".

Florin, you underestimate the power of water. Picture a 1-metre cube filled with water. That weighs 1 metric ton, (1000 kilograms) in mass. Now picture a few hundreds of billions of such cubes (metric tons) of water coming at you at the speed of sound. What kind of wall can take that? But why would you even think of a wall? Water like that does not just go to the wall and give up if the wall keeps standing. Water like that will go around and come in from behind. Ever heard the phrase "path of least resistance"? That is where water goes. No such "magic wall", no matter how tall (not even the Vidraru dam), would have worked anyway because water rose across an area hundreds of miles wide and went everywhere. You would need to have a tall wall going all around the coast (and every harbour mouth) without a single breach. The only thing that could work is a "tub" that enclosed the power plant from every side (but still needs a gate for people and vehicles to come in and out - i.e. weak point). Do not believe me? Fine! Go to the beach and build a sand castle near the water line. Now build a wall that stops the waves. Then come back and tell us what worked.
Also, to put into context how high the water got, the Fukushima plant was 10 metres above the sea level and IT HAD a sea wall.

Everything about Fukushima was just bad luck. Nothing could have prevented it given the circumstances.

Anyway, the estimate is that 28.000 (tenty-eight thousand!!!!) people were killed by the earthquake/tsunami. No one in the alarmist media cares. Picture the victim of a car crash, in a hospital bed encased in plaster from head to toe, in agony, and you come in and say "I am worried by a furuncle on your nose". Fukushima is a small thing compared to the IMMENSE suffering aready caused elsewhere around it. But I guess people drowned or crushed to death are not glamorous to the so-called journalists. Oh no! Radiation "deochi" sells more papers.

Radu

@Radub

Radiation causes cancer.

http://www.epa.gov/radiation/understand/health_effects.html

@Florin

There are many nuclear plants in Europe built just like the one in Fukushima, right on the coast, just a few meters away from the sea/ocean.

Radiation is nasty and never good news. "Radiation" is not a single/uniform thing, there are millions of variations of types of radiations, strengths, exposures. So, making a blanket statement that "radiation=cancer" is wrong. Sensationalistic, but wrong.
As I said, if radiation caused cancer every time without fail, then anyone exposed to it would get it.
Radu

Yes, radiation causes cancer depending on intensity and exposure time. Not all the time and for everyone alike. So there are variables, I didn't dispute that. What I disputed was a blanket statement like "radiation does not cause cancer". Maybe it doesn't cause cancer provided it is low intensity and/or brief exposure time. So depending on variables again.

Anyway, I think Fukushima is more than a "furuncul". It's been 2 and a half years now and they're still pouring seawater to cool down those three molten reactor cores. And the difficult part of the job on Fuel Pool 4 is just beginning. Japan is not out of the woods and things can get out of hand any time.

People say "smoking causes cancer" but you and I know that not everyone who smokes gets cancer.

Radiation is not the leading cause of cancer. In fact, the overwhelming number of people who get cdancer were never near any radiation. Exposure to radiation does not always lead to cancer. Saying "radiation=cancer" is inaccurate.

In as far as we know, Fukushima has not yet killed anyone. The tsunami killed tens of thousands of people. Fukushima was another victim of a cataclism that caused immense damage and suffering. Do not disassociate Fukushima from the tsunami and make it a "nuclear incident as if someone made a mistake or there is a design flaw. Nothing in that area survived unscathed. Of course there is radiation there. It is a nuclar power plant that was hit by a cataclism. They are dealing with it. Of course it takes time. It is not like shovelling manure. Radiation is dangerous and there is a time-consumming procedure to deal with it.

Remember this sketch?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIkj66fJ9Fc
Dar alea saracele, ce s-or fi ifacut? Care alea, artistele de prin localuri? Nu nene, scoicile! Pai ce, de artiste imi pasa mie?
Maybe you should start caring about the tens of thousands of people who were already killed.

Many years

The "Fukushima" subject is not that urgent.

But this one is:

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/sun-fires-s...-mph-6C10963172

I would say... Do not spend too much time outdoors until the end of this weekend.

Radiation is a carcinogen. Whether you get cancer or not depends on the intensity of the radiation and the period of your exposure to it.

And that's where "it takes time" becomes a problem for the people of Japan. The more time it takes the more radiation those 3 molten reactor cores spew out, the more exposure people get to radiation. The Japanese are dealing with it but the containment work cannot truly start before the molten cores can be cooled down and they're still pouring water over them since March 2011. You can imagine the severity of the situation.

Mortii cu mortii, viii cu viii. The dead are unfortunately dead, the living continue to have a serious situation on their hands as a result of that tsunami.

YES.
Thank you for the opportunity of a good laugh. It is good for health.

Exactly! That is what I have been saying all along.

Did you also know that the noxious emissions from power plants burning fossil fuel is also a carcinogen? And there is a lot more of that around. I bet you there is a CET within sight of your home. But hey, radiation is glamorous, it is living science-fiction, the stuff of movies. You need special colourful suits with helmets to deal with it. The smallest amount of it will will drive the authorities into a frenzy, flashing lights, yellow "do not cross" tape. You can use devices that make increasingly faster clicking noises as you approach (like that scene in Aliens). Radiation is studied in fortress-like labs geniuses with many letters after their name. Wow, fascinating!
"Regular" carcinogens do not come with such paraphernalia, mythology and history. Not glamorous. Almost... dirty. Best ignored, right?


Florin,
It is good that you are amused. As usual, in your rush to judge me as inferior, you missed the point. You can hear a lot if only you listen.

Radu

Exactly! That is what I have been saying all along.

Did you also know that the noxious emissions from power plants burning fossil fuel is also a carcinogen? And there is a lot more of that around. I bet you there is a CET within sight of your home. But hey, radiation is glamorous, it is living science-fiction, the stuff of movies. You need special colourful suits with helmets to deal with it. The smallest amount of it will will drive the authorities into a frenzy, flashing lights, yellow "do not cross" tape. You can use devices that make increasingly faster clicking noises as you approach (like that scene in Aliens). Radiation is studied in fortress-like labs geniuses with many letters after their name. Wow, fascinating!
"Regular" carcinogens do not come with such paraphernalia, mythology and history. Not glamorous. Almost... dirty. Best ignored, right?

Then we both agree but almost got lost in translation. I'm glad we avoided an argument.

Fukushima has the potential to make a good part if not the whole Northern Hemisphere FUBAR. The Japanese face a daunting task and I believe they hold more than their own fate in their hands. The whole thing is under-reported in my opinion. The media is certainly not putting a sensationalist spin on this. But now the big news is that in November TEPCO will start to work on that spent fuel pool no.4. That's a crucial bit of work. That's "what's next" in my opinion.