What's next?, next war Romanians could be part of

It would be comical if Romania scrambled the tired MiG Lancers against a squadron of Su-30. It is as comical as racing Trabants against Ferraris.
Never mind the planes... name a branch of the armed forces and compare it with the Russian counterpart. Romania had more troops and a richer inventory in 41 than today and still lost against Russia. Now? Not a chance! Not a hope!

My point is that Romania should stay out. No amount of nationalism can defeat Russia.

Radu

Especially considering that the Romanian experience in dealing with Ukraine since 1991 is not of nature to make Romania remorseful for wanting to stay in the sidelines.

Romania going in to help Ukraine was never an option.

But apart from that you paint such a defeatist picture that you should go at the Russian embassy and surrender already. Pre-emptively.

Defeatism? Is that another word for "in touch with reality"?

Ukraine itself has armed forces that are significantly larger than Romania's, they have a great deal more equipment than Romania and that equipment is far better and more up-to-date than Romania's. And even so, Ukraine openly declares that they cannot "deal with" Russia.

I asked you before: what makes you think Romania has any means to fight with Russia? You keep making such "vague but sage" dismissive statements as if you have private knowledge of some sort of "eye of Sauron" weapon that Romania keeps hidden somewhere in some cave under a tarpaulin. But I don't know of any such amazing powers at the disposal of Romania. And in a war, you cannot win with cheap sarcasm and pseudo-witticisms. You need weapons.

Radu

So, these declarations of "mobilization", "full alert" and "readiness" that I could see in the last two days are just a mind game ?

This post has been edited by Florin on March 03, 2014 08:53 pm

So, these declarations of "mobilization", "full alert" and "readiness" that I could see in the last two days are just a mind game ?

I said that even though Ukraine has a large army they do not think it is large enough to fight Russia.
All that talk of surrender and defeatism belongs to another guy so please ask him.
I was proposing the "Romania should stay out of it because it has no means to fight a war" tactic. Try to focus.
Radu

Defeatism is stuff like - "predictable outcome," "not a chance", "not a hope", "no amount of nationalism can defeat Russia". If you think this now when Russian forces aren't even close to our borders, what would you do if they get here and sneeze?

I am not dismissive of your knowledge of what chances our army as it stands now would have in a war with Russia. I agree with you on that. I am dismissive of the defeatist attitude. What is its purpose? Demoralize? Scare? Induce a feeling of dispair and surrender?

As for weapons. Romania has over 500,000 firearms, plenty of ammunition, and most importantly we are in NATO and if Mr. Putin continues like this I think our army will at least get some stocks of modern AT and AA missiles for starters.

Here, I must agree with Radu, unfortunately in the current situation in terms of equipment we (Romania) are completely overwhelmed in case of war with Russia (fortunately there is no such risk now). Ukraine inherited from the former Soviet army military equipment far more modern than we have (during the communist period or after) and is still unable to cope with the Russian Army,
our chances are even lower... Forget the lack of patriotism but realist speaking in case of a military confrontation with Russia we are doomed from the start without NATO aid!

Well Imperialist, there are thrre options:
1. Go to war with Russia and face the consequences
2. Surrender to Russia
3. Stay out of it altogether.

I keep saying that I prefer option 3. You keep pushing for options 1 and 2 and get all worked up over it. So, it looks like you are having a row with yourself.

Radu

I too have said option 3 is the obvious one in this crisis. Point 1 is not and was never an option for us.

Reading comments for American Internet news, the pro-Ukrainian writers mention a treaty signed in 1991 or 1992 in Budapest. That treaty guaranteed the borders of Ukraine, in exchange for the 2000 nuclear missiles inherited from Soviet Union, that Ukraine gave away to be destroyed. Parts signing the agreement were The United States, Russia and others.

If they are right, The United States is responsible to do something for Ukraine. They already took a very tough and strong measure: their athletes will boycott the Paralympics going on in Sochi right now. I understand the British will do the same. I am optimistic that Russia is already crushed and reeling from this. Tomorrow we will read how Russia is willing to give up a half of all her territories, just to see those infirm athletes coming to Sochi.

This post has been edited by Florin on March 04, 2014 04:14 am

On BBC website:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26421703

I don't know how long they will keep it there.

The only thing that the memorandum forces the signatories to do is this:

4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek
immediate United Nations Security Council action to
provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon
State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of
Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim
of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression
in which nuclear weapons are used.

Which they did. Nothing else.

An interesting analysis of military terms and not only comes from a character publicized on this thread -Cristian Negrea (whose analysis I have not really agreed in the past): http://www.cristiannegrea.ro/geopolitica/2...zut-fara-lupta/
I for one would have laughed if someone had told me in 2008 when the Russian army invaded Georgia, that in the event of invasion of Ukraine Russian troops would have occupied territory without fighting... but here we are!

This is very interesting to know. It is a very different story from "guarantee of borders" that some people claim.