Romanian anti-tank guns in 1941?

Hi Dear All!

Efficiency of the Romanian anti-tank guns in 1941.

In 1941 the Romanian infantry had problems in struggle against the Soviet tanks. I think this fact to challenge difficultly. Did not suffice ATG. I think, that destroyed Soviet armour were exposed to studying from the Romanian military experts. What Romanian ATG in June-October, 1941 were the most effective against the Soviet tanks? Whether there Is any statistics concerning destroyed Romanian trooppen in June-October, 1941 of tanks T-34? Documents of archive speak something about number of the Soviet tanks destroyed by Romanians in 1941?

I am grateful for any information. I did not see, that this theme here was discussed.

Excuse for my poor English. My Romanian is even poorer. So happens when during a life you learn 10 or 12 foreign languages. All well to learn it is impossible.

Regards. Alex.

Possible the closest topic to yours, in this forum, right here under "Romanian Army", was under this link:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=3309

Hi Yeeliseenko,

The Romanians appear not to have encountered any T34s in 1941. The T34s (and KVs) seem to have been used only on the German fronts further north.

The Romanians used a variety of Bofors, Bohler, Breda and Schneider 37mm and 47mm anti-tank guns that were of adequate international standard for these calibres and certainly capable of dealing with the most common BT and T26 Soviet light tanks encountered in 1941.

However, in 1941 there were not enough light anti-tank guns to adequately equip the whole army. In March 1941 the Romanian Army had only 40% of its establishment of 60mm mortars, 60% of 81mm mortars, 70% of 37mm of anti-tank guns, 40% of 47mm anti-tank guns and 20% of light anti-aircraft guns. This was a major reason why Romania could only use about half its army against the USSR in the summer of 1941. However, those divisions that did serve in 1941 were largely up to establishment and seem to have had similar numbers of light anti-tank guns to other armies.

There was still a shortage of light anti-tank guns in 1942, so the Romanian cavalry was equipped with captured Soviet 45mm AT guns as their standard weapon.

Real problems arose later in 1942 because T34s began to appear opposite the Romanians before the Germans were able to supply enough 75mm anti-tank guns to deal with them. This was a major reason for the Romanian disasters on the flanks at Stalingrad.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi, Sid.

I think that already in the beginning of July, 1941 1DB has met the first Soviet heavy tanks. It were KV (2 Mechanized Corps). 1DB had loss of 1 or 2 tanks R-2.
I have no doubts that Romanians met and Т-34 2 MC. Possibly struggle against them was very complex.

But also the Red army experienced difficulties with struggle against the Romanian tanks put from France. 45 mm the anti-tank gun could punch their armour only in rare cases.

Regards. Alex.

This post has been edited by Yeliseenko on October 29, 2006 09:15 am

I don't think any official statistic of tank kills by Romanian AT guns exists.

At the end of 1941, a report of the 1st Armored Division concluded that the 47 mm Bohler ATG was adequate for dealing with the Soviet tanks encountered. However, it met the heavier tanks of the 2nd MC for a short while and had both numerical superiority and powerful artillery support. The 25 mm Puteaux ATG was deemed as adequate against non-armored vehicles.

Hi Yeliseenko,

I seem to recall that the Romanians encountered T28 (?) heavy tanks in Basarabia/Moldova in 1941. There is, I think, a picture of a knocked out T28.

I have not heard before that they met any KVs in 1941. Do you have a source for this?

T34s were rare in 1941 and I have never seen any evidence that the Romanians met any that year. Do you have a source?

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. If you go to the appenices of the "Meltyukhov" site on the internet it will tell you the exact distribution of Soviet armour in June 1941. I suspect that there will be no T34s opposite Romania.

Hi Sid!

In Bessarabia was not Soviet Т-28. There there were tanks 2 MC. It had no Т-28. It had 10 KV-1. Romanians could meet T-28 later. Some information on this theme arrived from Victor.

The Odessa military district on June, 21st renamed into Southern front had much Т-34. So 11 TD 2 MC had 50 T-34. The information arrives from Evgenie Drig - the best expert on history mechanized corps Red Army. Much Т-34 was lost in fights under Berdichev. But before them could meet Romanian troopen.

I need detailed elaboration of fighting way D1B. If I had such information - I could compare the Romanian and Soviet data. Battle in Bessarabia still requires studying. As well as fights the Romanian in July-October, 1941. It is necessary to compare with the Soviet and Romanian sources. While anybody in details has not studied it.

Regards.

Alex.

I have all data Michael Meltjuhov. They arrive RGASPI-archive.

Here figures for June, 1st 1941.

The Odessa military district:

KV-10
T-34 - 50
T-28 - 0
T-35 - 0

Any Т-28 and Т-35.

There is not reflected a problem of tanks (old), was in the Strengthened areas (UR) in Bessarabia.

It is not solved a question and on "sea" tanks - tanks of navy fleet in Odessa. Whether it were known they.

Alex.

On 4 July the 1st Battalion/1st Tank Regiment counterattacked the Soviet armored formation that had overrun the positions of the German 203rd Infantry Regiment. The attack, backed by the 1st Motorized Artillery Regiment, pushed back the Soviet tanks and regained the lost ground by nightfall. The 1st Tank Regiment claimed that two Soviet heavy tanks were knocked out and abandoned on the field. During the night they were probably towed by Soviet repair crews. The Romanian side lost one tank due to friendly fire.

On 5 July, 3 R-2s went to invetigate an apparently abandoned Soviet heavy tank in a ravine, reported by the German infantry, and were caught in an ambush by 5 to 6 Soviet tanks. One Romanian tank was destroyed and the other two retreated.

The term used by col. Emilian Ionescu (CO 1st TR) in the report was "heavy tanks" (care grele). I doubt they were T-28. Rather a KV.

Do you have any other short accounts of tank battles Victor?

It is very interesting. I like to read about Romanian tank actions because there's not a lot out there. Do you have any other short accounts of tank battles Victor?

Hi Yeliseenko,

You are right. Odessa Military district possessed 10 KVs and 50 T34s on 1 June.

However, all were in 11th Tank Division of 2nd Mechanised Corps.

11th Tank Division apparently saw very little combat in the first weeks of the war. At the time it was withdrawn on 10 July in order to be transferred north to face the main German thrusts it had had only three tanks hit and still possessed all 10 KVs, 46 T34s and numerous lighter tanks.

I have no map of 11th Tank Division's deployments in the first week of July 1941, but it is entirely possible that it only clashed lightly with the German 11th Army and not with the Romanians at all.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi!

From whom then loss the Romanian tanks have had?

It arrives from Evgenie Drig's book (MC RKKA):

On July, 4th together with parts 48 Rifle corps, 2 MC participated in counterattack on Kosteshti.16 a tank division has seized villages of Borgenei-Noi and Sturdzeni. But in general counterattack success had no. The opponent "has held down" actions MC. As a result 2 MC has passed to defense.

On July, 6th 2 MC defended:

11 TD - hill 238 Nikoreny
16 TD - hill.252 Farm Ramazan
15 MD - to the south Барабой.

I do not know any other heavy tanks in this area. Probably Romanians have met KV, a T-34.

Victor, in Romania official history D1B is published?

Regards.

Alex.

Hi Alex,

Where is "this area"? I don't have a good enough map of Basarabia/Moldova with me.

The only part of 2nd Mechanised Corps that seems likely to have come into contact with Romanian armour is 15MD, which apparently mounted a local counter-attack towards Kishinev/Chisinau in mid July. It had no T34s or KVs.

You must bear in mind that half the Axis divisions invading Basarabia were German. The Germans were to the north of Kishinev/Chisinau and made the deepest advances. There was plenty of combat in Basarabia in which no Romanians took part.

Had the Romanians been attacked by KVs and/or T34s in 1941 there was virtually nothing the Romanians could have done to stop them. Such tanks would have made an enormous impression, but there seems to be no trace of them from either Romanian sources or the 11th German Army in northern Basarabia.

The working assumption must be that neither type was encountered by Romanians in Basarabia until positive evidence is found to that effect.

Cheers,

Sid.

Info 318 page from the Czech encyclopedia of tanks. In it it is spoken that together with Germans D1B has reached Mogilyev-Podolsky UR (the Strengthened area) approximately on Jule, 2nd. Further it is written that Romanians have collided with tanks T-28. Having lost Romanians have one tank, captured 2 Т-28.

Regards.

Alex.

This post has been edited by Yeliseenko on October 31, 2006 06:19 pm

Page czech book.

http://dump.ru/files/6/604900522/

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