Well made film, When you have gun control....

http://roncea.ro/2010/10/28/un-documentar-...dealului-video/

God rest in Peace on those who were killed innocent! God forgive the killers who have stained their hands and hearts for ever to these atrocities! God comfort these people who had endured a lifetime the memory of the close ones so brutally murdered! God forgive us and keep us away from Evil! Just can't say anything else...

Maybe God will forgive those who killed with cold blood inocent women and children, as those who could did such horible crimes are not humans and they deserve no mercy and no excuses. Regardless of their nationality they are rabbied dogs. Let's protect our future by not promoting extremism and God will also help us!

The people speaking are from Trăznea and from Ip, Sălaj county. They are telling the truth. My grandfather, one of the only six romanian survivors from Ip, told me the story himself. His wife and 7 years little girl were killed in the night of 13/14 september 1940 at Ip. He, aged 80, passed to my father and to me exactly the same legacy that the people from the movie told: "Do not forget!" He never in his life asked for revenge against the killers. He died in 1987, aged 87, in the same house were his wife and little girl was killed and he is buried few meters away from them, at Ip cemetery. I'll pass to my son, Horea, the same legacy left by my grandfather: "Do not forget!" and as my grandfather, I will tell him not to revenge.

This post has been edited by 21 inf on February 07, 2011 04:33 pm

I was waiting this film to pop up here, too, sooner or later. I see, eventually it did.

I have seen it earlier, and I must tell that unfortunately this is not a documentary, as it purportedly is, but rather a very professionally made artistic movie, with clear tendencies to politicize the tragic events that have actually happened in Ip, without the goal to find out the actual, complete historical background.

There are several issues, which make the movie one-sided and subject to doubt as what was its real purpose. For example:
- why weren't any Hungarians interviewed? After all, the village was not a purely Rumanian one, but with mixed population. There were local Hungarians who also witnessed the events.
- why weren't the names and the age of the interviewed persons given? This way, we could see if they actually witnessed the tragic events, or they have heard about it as an oral history?
- why weren’t any Hungarian historians interviewed (only Rumanian ones), to offer a chance to the viewer to see the same events from the other side, too, thus to have a more balanced view?

Also, there are a few details, which are clearly distorted, or not spoken about. Namely, why was the population of this particular village decimated (along with the nearby Trasnea), with dozens of civilians killed in cold blood, and not the over one thousand other localities in Northern Transylvania, ceded to Hungary in August 1940? It is also said that the Hungarian soldiers started the killings unprovoked, which is not true.

In this era of information flow, even a casual search of the internet, lasting a couple of minutes by a person with passing knowledge of Hungarian, would yield several sources, which give answers to these key questions.

One such study is this one, written by a noted young Hungarian historian, Péter Illésfalvi, where he also discusses the atrocities committed by Hungarian soldiers against local Rumanian population, placed in the general context of the events: www.hungarianarmedforces.com/kapcsolat.doc

Or, this study is focusing particularly on the aforementioned atrocities:
http://adatbank.transindex.ro/html/cim_pdf948.pdf , see ‘Szilágyipp és környéke’ Chapter

In this article, based on archival documents, it is clearly stated that the Hungarian troops were shot at from the local church’s tower with a machine gun, even the name of the sniper, Victor Chifor, being given. Also, the main person guilty of the atrocities that happened after this - which were not justified by any means - is clearly identified, namely company commander főhadnagy Bedő Zsolt (1st Lt. Zsolt Bedő). During these cold blooded killings, a total of 157 local persons were indeed killed, including elderly, women and children. After these killings, the Hungarian troops left the village, taking with them the captured machine gun as proof.

It is also stated in the quoted text that the events were investigated by the military authorities, but – shamefully - the conclusion was that the killings were justified due to the generally hostile environment and the sniping. Thus, Lt. Bedő was let go free from jail.

Perhaps 21inf can translate some excerpts from these studies, so all of us would have a clearer and more balanced view of those tragic events, a task for which the mentioned artistic movie unfortunately did not live up to.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 08, 2011 05:18 am

It is just too painfull for me to continue this discussion, I'll just put a fragment of a poem from 1940 which reflects the emptiness and great sorrow I feel after remembering all this horible things. I am not ashamed to recognise that I painfully cried with those 2 survivors from Ip from the movie, as I know one of them. I spent a part of my childhood in the house were those killings happened.......................

În pădurea de la Ip
Nu auzi cirip-cirip,
Numai vântul hăulind,
Oase de români jelind,
Ce tot cheamă şi blesteamă...

@21inf,
Sincere condolences to you, your family and all the survivors of this heinous crimes! I share your message which is sent also by the Holocaust survivors : forgive but not forget! For the purpose that something like this not ever happen again!
@Denes
A crime can never have any excuse anywhere! -Even if it were just one innocent victim of murder is still murder! And in the case of a massacre, like this one, it's no longer appropriate to talk -only to grieve what happened and swear, all of us, that something like this never ever happen again!

21inf, your grief is totally justified and humane. I am also personally deeply sorry for what has happened to the innocents.

My above words were directed solely to the film and its shortcomings.

I don't intend to tackle the topic any longer.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 08, 2011 05:31 am

@ Denes: Thanks for understanding. I know that you didnt wanted to hurt me and your post was only to clarify some things. I was just too troubled last evening remembering all this old memories.

@ others: Hungarian army was already very stressed that romanian civilians will fight them. I dont know why they were so. In the link Denes provided above, the hungarian sources state that in Ip a horse drawn wagon exploded. In that moments hungarian military believed that romanian civilians atacked them and arested four romanian villagers acused for the atack. They were released later, but in the first moments, romanian sources state that hungarian army wanted to revenge imediately upon romanian civilians. Later it was found by hungarian army that the wagon exploded by the fault of the soldier driving it, it was loaded with ammo which was improperly stored. In any romanian source, including my grandfather memoirs, no one speaks about Victor Chifor, so I dont know if the incident is real. In Ip the massacre was organised after 6 september 1940 by Farago baron, local landlord from Ip and hungarian ethnics from the village. Reunions were held in his mannor, nowadays transformed in kindergarten. The hungarian mailman from Ip was in charge to count each romanian from each house, in order no one can escape massacre. That's why the killings took so many victims, almost entire romanian population from the village. Only 6 romanians managed to escape that night of 13/14 september 1940.

What the survivors form Trăznea said in the movie was true. A machinegun fire was heard outside village and after that massacre begin. Romanian sources says that it was fired by hungarian army to provide a pretext for the killings. I found this kind of pretext in many romanian villages where hungarian army entered in 1940 in Transylvania. Romanian sources state the case of a girl, daughter of a romanian priest from a village, shot dead by hungarian army and put in front of the church, with a machine gun in hand, to look like a partisan who shot upon hungarian army. Romanian eyewitness says she was inocent. (I cant cite the book or names cos I'm citing from memory as I dont have the books available right now).

The episode of a romanian officer crossing the Vienna Diktat border is true, I found it in many other romanian books citing survivors from Trăznea.

There were killings in many villages and towns in Transylvania, but none so complete as in Ip and Trăznea. Maybe in other places were no such radicals as Farago baron as in Ip. I dont know why was like this in Trăznea.

There were also hungarians saving their romanian neighbours during masacres and killings. I have to cite the hungarian neighbour of my grandpa who saved him when the killers went into his yard for the first time. When they came second time, the good hungarian neighbour was not there and they killed the two inocents. Grandpa escaped runing.

Another case, a must to rememebered, is a hungarian mayor from a nearby mixt village. After Ip massacre, he heard what happened there. A hungarian army platoon marched toward his isolated village. He went in it's way asking the oficer why he is driving his men into his village. Answer was "to protect hungarian ethnics from romanians". The hungarian mayor asked the oficer to turn back, as in his village romanian and hungarian are good neighbours and need no army protection. Everyone is convinced that if honveds entered village, the same would happened as in Ip. The mayor remained in his post as late as 1960's or 70's when he died respected by both romanians and hungarians.

A romanian eyewitness from another village from Sălaj county, which I saw filmed some years ago, says that in his mixt village hungarian civilians asked hungarian army oficer in charge with order in the village what they have to do with romanian ethnics: shoot them? The hungarian army oficer forbided this thing and nobody was killed. The eyewitness I speak about was demobilised from romanian army and just arived home. He was hunted in his village by hungarians soldiers who wanted to kill him, so he had to hide for a while. On his way back from romanian army to his village he was almost twice shot by hungarian honveds because he speak to them in hungarian language. This kind of atitude I also readed in other cases too, even if I cant understand why they wanted to shoot romanians speaking hungarian language. After a while, he was sent to Budapest to work in factory, forced labour. I dont give the name of this eyewitness and his village as I am not entitled to do so.

I also know who is the survivor from Ip speaking in the movie, but as they didnt gave away his name, I feel that I'm also not entitled to present it.

The movie above might be a "lucrare de diploma" of some students from romanian film academy, as I saw some similar movies in last year, even not with exactly the same subject.

Killings of civilian happened in any military conflict, had they having weapons or not. It happened to russians, poles and czechs in ww2, to vietnamese in Indochina and later Vietnam war, to ex-yugoslavian citisens and examples could continue to forever. Sometimes civilians were killed cos they had weapons, sometimes because they didnt had. Sumarising, war is hell and creation of sick minds, so it would be better if every politician from the World think well his moves, not to bring another damn war upon us. Common citisens is better to think more and with better quality, not to allow the unproper politician to take the power somewhere and to start another war, being it local or worldwide. Unfortunatelly, hidrogen and fools are the most often found on this planet.

I fully agree with Dragos. He is also right in what he has written further on.

Indeed, it would have been a bloodbath all over Northern Transylvania had all Rumanian villagers been armed. Luckily, this wasn't generally the case, thus the entrance of the Hungarian troops unfolded overwhelmingly peacefully.

Massacres of smaller or larger magnitude happened only in several villages, like Ip, where - according to Hungarian documents and witnesses - the Hungarian troops were fired upon. As stated, this was no excuse for the atrocities committed against innocent civilians.

So, C-2, this case does not support at all the theory that armed civilians discourage violence - your main reason why posting the movie.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. And with referring to this movie, C-2 you did manage to stir up old wounds, a topic which already has a dedicated thread. Also, this artistically made movie largely based on a true story also serves to incite ethnic hatred and increase political tension among the simple or stupid people - see the remark on the very site you recommended: "Un motiv pentru care sunt impotriva Legii Educatiei Maghiarizate" (This is a reason why I am against the Magyarised Law of Education). What on Earth have the education rights of current Hungarian ethnics with the described massacres that happened over 70 years ago?

The anexation of Transylvania in 1940 wasn’t overwhelmingly peaceful. The tightly censored Romanian press of the time, through which the authorities had (at least) the visible interest to minimize their foreign policy failure by minimizing the consequences of the “diktat”, was full of the accounts of those abuses and atrocities. Their impact shouldn’t be neglected, and the “thesis” denying them, or saying that they were justified is not a new one. As a side question, could anything justify the mass killing of innocent/civilian women and children? Perhaps Aurel Munteanu, the priest from Huedin tortured to death by several Hungarian civilians on the street, in broad daylight (an episode which, because of its shocking and hard to believe details, I would label as one of the most gruesome occurrences from the history of torture of WW 2, a history with a not at all scarce list of such events), was guilty of provoking his murderers?

We cannot talk about an overwhelmingly peaceful installation of the Hungarian/Horthyst administration exactly because of these facts. On the one hand the atrocities were, even if not a rule in term of numbers, outrageous and repulsive by themselves (ex. Ip, Trăsnea, the brutal murdering of Aurel Munteanu, etc). On the other hand the abuses were quite widespread (ex. one of my grandfathers, a quite well-of peasant from an area near Dej, not involved into politics, was “only” beaten and threatened/intimidated in order to accept the administrative change of his name/"magyarisation" from Vasile to Ladislau - and he was not an exception in his village; perhaps it was thought to be a good thing if he and some of the “gospodarii satului” would became, overnight, Hungarian - at least for the statistics). I mention the latter episode "en passant" only, because it was told by him to me when I was a child, in a without grudge and jokingly “Stan Păţitul”-like manner - like in the jokes with Transylvanians/ardeleni. Now of course I didn’t search for any witness from the “Hungarian side” - in order not to be biased or to counter-check his story - nor do I care about the possible macro-explanation or justification of a Hungarian historian about this fact.

Maybe that’s why someone from that site, more or less educated, mention his/her suspicion towards a “magyarised” education law. Because more and more people fear the fact that, as some Hungarian leaders (holding administrative offices) from Harkov made a rule/habit in the last few years from publicly displaying some Hungarian private organizations’ symbols or the Hungarian national flag on the public buildings (in spite and against the laws, and in defiance of the requests of the Romanian minority living in those counties), the official history learn in Romania in Hungarian language by the Hungarian children could became an equivalent of the collection of Revisionist and negationist myths circulated by some Hungarian politicians and self-styled historians. Remember the so-called “documentary movie” “Trianon”? I think that some fear, perhaps with some substance, that a collection of that sort of clichees could become a substitute for the history learned in school. And because they do not agree with the double standards in Romanian-Hungarian relations. As an example, on the one hand, the ethnic Hungarians from Romania can celebrate, from years now and in a normal environment, the all-Hungarian national holyday. Sometimes the Romanian officials (such as the president) send them public and official greetings on that occasion. On the other hand, the UDMR/RMDS leaders, members of the governing coalition(s) from 2000 onwards, boycott on a regular basis the Romanian national holydays. Hear and then, in their absence, they sent a "coroana de flori". When in last December a public building (the Hungarian National Theater main hall in Budapest) was subcontracted by the institution manager (in exchange for a sum money) to the Romanian embassy in order to celebrate the national day (December 1), the episode was considered a scandal, a defiance - a “lack of sensitivity for Hungary’s loss” (!) - the manager was labeled as sort of a traitor so the deal had to be called off and the poor fellow to apologize publicly. It is indeed very comfortable to be non-conformist, anti-nationalist, “sine ira et studio” and open-minded - and to take all the details into account - when it suits us…

This post has been edited by Agarici on February 09, 2011 01:59 pm

Hello,
can somebody give us an example or more if there are, with Romanian army doing this kind of "things" to Hungarian minorities during ww II?
I'm curious to find out if this problem happent in both sides or just to Romanians.
Another story, Hungarian languadge is not so common and probably there are not so many Hungarian speackers and i mean no more than Hungarian's and few which are interested in it's culture or have something to do with it, so there are not to many outsiders who can clarifie if Hungarian authorities or historians saying are true or not.
When a human is accused about something like this, he start to defend it self in differnet ways, he start to lie in the first moment and to invent things or circumstances favorable to him, but when is about a country, who is accused about this ..... i can say or write whatever i want to look more ...nice, so the witness testimonies in this chase are important.
Why the Hunagrians dont come in front and defend the motherland of such acuse...? whit witness also, i think there are at leas 2 soldiers who escape the war and are still alive.
One thing i am half Hungarian, half Romanian, for me this problems are stil open wounds on both sides, especially when my roots are from Bobalna/Cluj-N. county and my Romanian grandfather was involved in this kind of "thing's" and one the other hand a cousin of my grandgrand mother from Hungarian side was a general in Hungarian army..... and who know's which other relatives of my Hunagrian side deed in those time.
In the end, one thing is good, i am the results of a mixed familly and a good example of living togheter in harmony.

Denes ,
This forum is about war in particular.
If we can post a link to a movie like the "Portret of a fighter..."
I don't see any harm about links to any other film who treats resonably a war subject.
That's as long as we learn from mistakes and get wise.

SATHOR, no such events as in Ip and Trăznea happened to hungarian ethnics from the part of romanians in ww2, I mean not so extensive. Some hungarian ethnics were killed by romanians, military or civilians, in 1944 and 1945. The cases were either isolated or little groups, up to 5 or 6 individuals, were killed, all men as far as I know. The cases I know were civilian hungarians from Transylvanian villages acused by romanians that they helped hungarian army or they turned in romanian civilians who helped romanian army and those romanians were killed by honveds. It was a unfortunate situation "eye for eye".

I am sure there are enough romanians speaking hungarian and enough hungarians speaking romanian in order that each side read or listen what the other side have to say. Maybe they are not prepared yet, psichologically, to speak to each other, or they lack the capacity to do so, yet.

I saw some years ago a hungarian documentary about romanian war crimes in 1944 in the counties from central Transylvania, mostly inhabited by szeklers. I was horipiled to see this documentary, with old hungarian men and women speaking and crying in the same manner as the romanians from the linked movie above. The grief and the tears were the same as of romanians. Those old hungarian men and women said that the killers were romanians, mostly inmates (puşcăriaşi, deţinuţi), freed from prisons, and that they belong to Maniu Guards. I know nothing about Maniu Guards and who were they. I also dont know if the hungarians massacred by those so called inmates were guilty of something or they were inocents. Even if they were guilty of something, the horible things described by those elders, were far too cruel and too savage. Let's hope that nothing such this will ever happen again!

Gentlemen, let's not highjack this thread, which suppose to deal with gun control and the movie C-2 posted in supporting this topic.

All threads regarding Hungarian and Rumanian atrocities against civilians should be moved to the already existing thread, where many of the details have already been discusses and detailed:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...&hl=crimes&st=0

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 09, 2011 08:37 pm

Ok, Denes, you are right, a lot of discussions here are now off-topic.