Romanian-Hungarian War 1918-1919

Split from Last official casualties of WWI topic

For Romania ww1 ended in early 1918 with the Buftea Peace, not in 11 november 1918. In november 1918 Romania mobilised again it's army and the war against bolshevic Hungary ended in 1919.

Between early 1918 and november 1918 Romania fought against bolshevics in Moldavia and Bessarabia.

This post has been edited by dragos on November 16, 2010 10:12 am

As stated, repeatedly, Communism in Hungary started only on 23 March 1919, and lasted until 1 August 1919.

Therefore, for the sake of historical accuracy, the Rumanian Kingdom went to war against the the democratic Republic of Hungary in mid-November 1918.

Gen. Dénes

Hungary in november 1918 might not be comunist yet, so I believe you, Denes, that it was not red. But I dont know if Hungary was either democratic then, because the AH empire just collapsed and was a sort of void of power. Actually I dont know what Hungary was at that time. Maybe in 23 march 1919 Hungary went oficially bolshevic, but the idea might be earlier, even not so early as november 1918.

Also, AFAIK, the "conflict" didn't officially start in november 1918...

The conflict officially started when the first Rumanian soldiers crossed the Rumanian-Hungarian border on the Carpathian Mountains in mid-November 1918.

My problem is with the repeated attempts to paint the 1918-1919 Rumanian-Hungarian regional war as some sort of "Anti-Bolshevik Crusade" by the Rumanian Army, when it clearly wasn't.
It was all about gaining as much territory as possible in Transylvania, and beyond, using up the void following the end of WW1 and the weakness of the leftist Hungarian Government (who disbanded the Army and sent the about 1 million soldiers returning from the various fronts home), and with the tacit support of the Western Powers, particularly France. This operation by the Rumanian Army went on for about four months before Boshevism actually gained power in Hungary.
But the labelling of this conflict as "Anti-Bolshevik Campaign" currently sounds good and is widely used by some Rumanian historians and enthusiasts to cover up the essence of the events.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 15, 2010 09:09 am

This IS getting OoT, but...
1. What do you mean by "official"? Was there a declaration of war of some sort?
2. I wouldn't use the term"void", because there were (at least) two conflictig authorities...
3. re: bolshevism - "to gain power" is too abstract; as 21 inf said, the idea was way older than Bela Kun's "government"; also, it was anti-bolshevik because of the alliance between USSR and SRH (Soviet Republic of Hungary), which was directed specifically against Romania!
4. re: tacit support - not quite so, because there were repeated warnings from te allied powers to stop the Romanian advance towards west.
Back on topic: the last Romanian victim of ww1 was in march 1918, then? Interesting theory...

It is off-topic and it might be better to be discussed separatelly, but I'll continue just for now here the dicussion above. IMHO, not all what Denes said above is quite exactly as he said, and please, no offence intended! Denes is also right in some parts and this have to be recognised!

Of course Romania wanted as much as posible from Transylvania, as it was the declared purpose of her entering ww1. Transylvania was claimed, as other teritories from ww1 period Hungary, in the virtue of nationality, mainly romanian. During time, Transylvania was mostly a independent principality, not a Hungarian province.

In 12 october 1918 at Oradea, Romanian National Council from Transylvania and Hungary stated that the will of romanian population from the named teritories wanted the union with Romanian Kingdom. Oszkar Jaszi, the minister for nationalities in post-AH crashed monarchy, most exactly from Hungary, discussed at Arad in early november with RNC about romanian transylvanian option to break bonds with Hungary and to unite with Romania. The discussion broke after Iuliu Maniu said to Oszkar Jaszi that romanians from Transylvania wanted "teljes elszakadas" (total separation, rupere totala) from Hungary and union with Romania. After this moment, hungarian administration fled Transylvania and the administration went in the hand of RNC and Romanian National Guard. So, hungarian authority ceased to exist peacefully in Transilvania in early november 1918. Around 10th of november 1918 romanian army was remobilised in Moldavia and in around 11th the first romanian soldier reentered Transylvania after 1916 romanian atack. After all, Transylvania was guaranteed by the alliance treaty with France, England and Russia to be given to Romania after ww1. So, november 1918 romanian entering in Transylvania was in the base of this alliance treaty. Very soon Allies themselves stopped the advance of romanian army at half Transylvania arguing that the rest of Transylvania will be given to Romania after the peace treaty, thing that Romania didnt accepted, so the april 1919 followed. The argument that Romania started the atack in 1919 because of bolshevism in Hungary might be true, as well that it might be just partially true and exacerbated by propaganda.

Hungary, between October 1918 and November 1919, changed his alliegations four times.
First,after Carol de Habsburg, the Emperor, made his declaration in 16 Octomber, when he proposed a federalist stat to preserve the empire, Hungary agreed. After antimonarchist revolution in Viena (30 Oct), they killed Istvan Tisza and put in his place as prim minister Karoly Mihalyi, who proclaimed himself Antantist. Hungary recognaised Wilson's proclamation (14 points) about the right of every people to choose his way. When (19March 1919) general Vyx announced the decision of Peace Conference to create a buffer yone between Romanians and Hungarians, and Hungary must retreat his troops, Karoly give the power to Bolsheviks (23 March). Himself said: I give the power to the Proletars! Hungary seek what it cannot obtain from the West, to obtain from the East. After the colapse of Bolsheviks, the power was seized by Horty, who proclaimed himself as fascist. Later, he will say that he was the first fascist in Europe.
All but to preserve the state, separated from Austria, but against the wilsonian principles, about the right of peoples.

Pardon me, but what are you basing this *** [self censored] conclusion at?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 24, 2010 12:40 pm

I"ll check the moment and the source, I found it in one written document. I'll come back with details.

The meaning and conclusion of the post remains.
IMO, Horthy was a right-wing nationalist and anti-semit, as Hungarian governments and majority of Parliament after 1920, during his regime.

I found one description of the first stage of this war, with one map, poor quality. I have some other maps, from general Mardarescus book, and I will put them here. The operations description (IMO) is not very acurate, but it is one of the most complete I found on the net.

http://cristiannegrea.blogspot.com/2011/02...despre-una.html

Sorry contras,
I also posted the same link on my topic 'About the Szekely Division in 1918-1919 battles' unaware that you post it first. My apologies!

War description, part 2 and 3:

http://cristiannegrea.blogspot.com/2011/03...la-1919-ii.html

http://cristiannegrea.blogspot.com/2011/03...1919-ii-de.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian%E2%...ian_War_of_1919