Romanian-Hungarian War 1918-1919

The series of armistices the Hungarian party was forced to sign between Nov. 1918 and March 1919.

This last one was too much even for Károlyi, who then stepped aside, leaving the only existing significant party, the Bolsheviks, to take power.

Gen. Dénes

A politician of Jewish origin was ready to fight to restore the territorial integrity of Hungary, because a Hungarian nobleman was unwilling to do it.

Correct.

Gen. Dénes

What kind of pacifist is this one who gave his own country willingly in the hands of Bolsheviks. Don't tell he didn't know who were they, Lenin's revolution begins in 1917. And don't tell that he didn't know that Bolsheviks will go to war!

What kind of pacifist is this one who gave his own country willingly in the hands of Bolsheviks. Don't tell he didn't know who were they, Lenin's revolution begins in 1917. And don't tell that he didn't know that Bolsheviks will go to war!

Yeah, well, that's why toilet cleaners exist... When you really don't like the smell, but one can help you get rid of it!

This post has been edited by MMM on November 16, 2012 05:48 pm

What kind of pacifist is this one who gave his own country willingly in the hands of Bolsheviks. Don't tell he didn't know who were they, Lenin's revolution begins in 1917. And don't tell that he didn't know that Bolsheviks will go to war!

In politics it is not that rare when a government is resigning leaving the vacuum to be filled by other politicians with completely different targets.
The problem is:
If your grasp on country is not tight, and you are not sure on the support or strength of military, police, local mayors, common people, what are you going to do?
Stay in your ministerial seat until somebody will arrest you or kill you?
Much more courage is needed to rule a country in dire straits than in normal times, and many politicians simply do not have that strength, self-sacrifice or insanity.

This post has been edited by Florin on November 16, 2012 06:23 pm

Like in the happy ends of bed time fairy tales, Béla Kun (born Béla Kohn) was rewarded with a big slice of Communist gratitude for his contribution to the great cause of the international proletariat.
This is from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_Kun
I know Wikipedia is not the last word in almost anything, but at least it is a start for everything.

Well, isn't this "gratitude story" similar to what happened to Marcel Pauker and - provided Stalin lived a little longer - could've happened to Ana Pauker as well?
Back on topic, contras, the people (with leftist views, at least, which were not rare by the end of WW1), were regarding the new-born communist state with hope rather than fear (except for a couple of Poles and Romanians, sick of the Russian neighbour, by whatever name styled itself...), so the emerging USSR (actually Soviet Russia, deep in civil war in 1918-19) was regarded by some as a desirable solution to their problems (be they social, military or even teritorial).

This post has been edited by MMM on November 16, 2012 06:58 pm

I think the problem was bigger than not liking the Russian / Bolshevik neighbor. In those years Poland, Romania and Finland had to fight for their survival.
From the long link I had provided before (I did not read myself every word of it, so I understand if you did the same):

............................
The Soviet government lasted for 133 days, falling on 1 August 1919. The Soviet Republic had been formed to resist the Vix Note, and created the Hungarian Red Army to do so. Given the disparity in power between Hungary and the Allies, Hungarian chances for victory were slim at best. To buy time, Kun tried to negotiate with the Allies, meeting the South African Prime Minister, General Jan Smuts at a summit in Budapest in April. Agreement proved impossible, and Hungary was soon at war later in April with the Kingdom of Romania and Czechoslovakia, both aided by France. The Hungarian Red Army achieved some success against the Czechoslovaks, taking much of Slovakia by June.

The Hungarians were repeatedly defeated by the Romanians, however. By the middle of July 1919, Kun decided to stake everything on an offensive against the Romanians. The Allied Commander in the Balkans, the French Marshal Louis Franchet d'Esperey wrote to Marshal Ferdinand Foch on 21 July 1919: "We are convinced that the Hungarian offensive will collapse of its own accord... When the Hungarian offensive is launched, we shall retreat to the line of demaracation and launch the counteroffensive from that line. Two Romanian brigades will march from Romania to the front in the coming days, according to General Fertianu's promise. You see, Marshal, we have nothing to fear from the Hungarian army. I can assure you that the Hungarian Soviets will last no more than two or three weeks. And should our offensive not bring the Kun regime down, its untenable internal situation surely will.[9]

The Soviets promised to invade Romania and link up with Kun and were on verge of doing so, but military reversals suffered by the Red Army in Ukraine stopped the invasion of Romania before it began. The Romanians then invaded Hungary, took Budapest, crushed the Communists and on 1 August 1919 forced them to hand over power to the Social Democratic party.

My personal opinion is that Béla Kun and his leadership did a very big mistake. He should focus all his strength in the offensive conquering Slovakia. That would allow the complete invasion of that area and would provide a path in a push toward east, to meet the Red Army and the Bolshevik Ukrainians. But maybe because he grew up in Transylvania, he divided his forces in a two pronged offensive.
To be realistic, if he would succeed in joining the Slavic Bolsheviks by doing what I had mentioned, I am assuming that desperate calls from Czechs and Slovaks and requests from the Western Allies would spring the Romanian army into offensive, even if it would not be attacked.

This post has been edited by Florin on November 17, 2012 08:51 pm

Indeed, it could be a possibility, but in real terms it could not be sustained. Romanian troops occupied Pocutia and other territories in order to cut any possibility to join Hungarian troops with the Russian Bolsheviks.

Of course, they fought for their own survival. But they, on these times, were the last strongholds for the survival of western world, the same fight in middle ages who preserved Western civilization.

Now I understand !
In that Wikipedia link, just some laconic words, "The Riddle of the Sphinx":

"....The Soviets promised to invade Romania and link up with Kun and were on verge of doing so, but military reversals suffered by the Red Army in Ukraine stopped the invasion of Romania before it began...."

Now I understand what was the "military reversals" !

Of course, they fought for their own survival. But they, on these times, were the last strongholds for the survival of western world, the same fight in middle ages who preserved Western civilization.

Isn't it an over dramatic characterization of the situation? The "last stronghold" myth was popular in Ceausescu's historiography, but I like to believe we moved on in quality since those times.

Of course, they fought for their own survival. But they, on these times, were the last strongholds for the survival of western world, the same fight in middle ages who preserved Western civilization.

Isn't it an over dramatic characterization of the situation? The "last stronghold" myth was popular in Ceausescu's historiography, but I like to believe we moved on in quality since those times.

Yeah, Victor, but most of us received our education in the final years of the "régime" and that undoubtedly left marks (scars?)! As for the "last strongholds" or the "sanitary cordon", those were terms of the 1920's - based on facts: see Germany or Hungary in 1919...
@contras and the "myth of saving the western world": unfortunately for our mythological appetite (WTH, read Lucian Boia please!), when the Romanians were fighting more or less with the Othoman Empire, the Western civilization was way more advanced than these Eastern parts. They had some of the biggest cathedrals and they had already begun the Renaissance when the states of Moldova and Walachia were hardly created...

Of course, they fought for their own survival. But they, on these times, were the last strongholds for the survival of western world, the same fight in middle ages who preserved Western civilization.

Isn't it an over dramatic characterization of the situation? The "last stronghold" myth was popular in Ceausescu's historiography, but I like to believe we moved on in quality since those times.

Yeah, Victor, but most of us received our education in the final years of the "régime" and that undoubtedly left marks (scars?)! As for the "last strongholds" or the "sanitary cordon", those were terms of the 1920's - based on facts: see Germany or Hungary in 1919...
@contras and the "myth of saving the western world": unfortunately for our mythological appetite (WTH, read Lucian Boia please!), when the Romanians were fighting more or less with the Othoman Empire, the Western civilization was way more advanced than these Eastern parts. They had some of the biggest cathedrals and they had already begun the Renaissance when the states of Moldova and Walachia were hardly created...

I think the "myth" of Boia (or similar views) was already "demythized" or debunked, including in a previous thread here.

We can discuss with numbers or about events back then to prove (or not) that our resistance against Ottoman partially saved and helped "the west" to develop more and more free and partially stoped our own development (real and calm debate, outside of extreme nationalism or Boia like view of history, supported by Soros fundations from what i understand).

Stephen the Great monasteries for example are in a league of their own and in some ways more spectacular that western like cathedrals. And as military we wasnt in any way less developed then any other medieval European army, quite contrary, personages as Iancu de Hunedoara, Vlad Tepes or Stefan cel Mare was among the most (if not the most) skilled commanders of medieval era

And yes, the elimination by Romania of Hungarian Bolshevik Republic (and fights of Poland or Finland) cut the Soviets from Germany, where was planned and about to be formed a new Soviet/Bolshevik republic.

At least half of Europe was spared for more then couple decades from Bolshevik regimes. And who know what would be the course of history if Bolshevik revolutions would had success in Hungary and Germany back then