IAR80 flying again?, project or fantasy?

Getting enough money to publish a book without business case (aviation history doesn't generate profit) is very difficult. Imagine getting enough money to build a 1:1 flying replica. We are talking about several hundreds of thousands of Euros.
..........

The German company I was mentioning was trying to sell the FW-190's with 500,000 / 500.000 Euros. A very crude rule of thumb, to be used just as a base, says that the manufacturing of a product cost about the third of final price of the product landing at retailer's desk. This means that building a IAR-80 will be in the area of 167,000 / 167.000 Euros or more.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 07, 2010 06:32 pm

Not quite so. It also depends very much on how many prospective buyers are out there, for a retail price of about half a million Euros. For the Fw 190, it's probably more than a dozen. For the I.A.R. 80...

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 08, 2010 07:32 am

100.000 -200.000 euro could be a factory price for one piece. But until the mass production ( to have such a low price) the investment is a far away much much bigger.
The german company asked 500.000 euro, because want to cover his investment not only for manufacturing but also for materials, for design team, for logistic , for engines ( 100.000 at least for an original BMW) ofcourse some little profit goes in to other projects ( see Mustang parts at Ghimbav).

The problem with Romania is not that we don't have people with money for such a nobil projects.
But this people don't love so much the history of theyr nation ( like Germany or US). They love only their pokets.
Between the two wars the romanians were far away much wiling to spent money for patriotic projects ( so many in aviation) but they were aristocrat (nobel) origin not like today cartoon milionaires.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on December 08, 2010 08:27 am

Indeed, the best way to do it is to obtain the help of someone who has the means and experience to do this. But, in my opinion, the finances needed are seriously underestimated. I imagine that if the plane is available for 500.000 euro, the actual costs involved were in the region of 400.000 euro, which still leaves enough profit margin for the investor.
We may have a flying IAR80 some day, you never know. But I doubt that it will be done because some random dude comes up on an internet forum and goes Fratilo-ho-ho-ho-or! Ma apuca emo-ho-ho-tziunea!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ieF7G-WJI&feature=related
Radu

However, before some people decide to finance such a project, this project has to actually exist. One cannot ask for financial backup in such a project without saying how one is going to spend it.

Absolutely! A "business plan" with objectives, requirements and costs needs to be put together first. Only then we will have some sort of cost estimate and a direction to follow.
Radu

I was basically quoting what you see on TV these days about the period. Many regular people have this impression or they have it induced that everything associated with the period was nazi or fascist or whatever label those things need to be.
If by any chance you saw that TV show on TVR1 on the 1st of Dec 2010, about Op. Tidal Wave... that speaks a lot about what people know about IAR 80/81 and is an argument for what I say


This post has been edited by RedBaron on December 08, 2010 05:36 pm

Right!
Phew that was some rant!

Let me make a wild guess here... you build scale models. You probably built a couple of "shake and bake" plastic models (let me guess... Tamyia, Revell?) and now you think that it would be just as easy to "shake and bake" a flying IAR.

Well, why don't you ask your wealthy aeroplane-owning friends to sponsor a flying IAR80. They must have a hangar, a workshop and the ground crew to handle this task. This is the easiest means to bring your wish to fruition.

Then you can get your lonely IAR80 in the air and show those dastardly Hungarians what's what! How dare they have a healthier goat than yours?

Radu

I think you may have a problem, besides the superiority issue you display in your messages.

I am telling you the second time to stop assuming or imagining things about other people. As much as you wish to have the truth spoken, your opinion is many times void of any truth.

Usually you attack the person and not the idea, so I will engage in one message with you, probably one too many:

1. Seek the definition of rant.

2. I dont build models, I buy what I like. I dont have the skills to build nice models, neither the time.

3. If some of you have the impression that in RO money is what is lacking... well, ok then. A lot of money in RO was/is/will be burnt on... whatever useless things, rather than something of value. And to attack the matter at hand, EVERYWHERE in the world there are aviation enthusiasts that get together and rebuild planes, because... yes - there is respect and mentality. I wont do any research for you... just open your eyes and see. There are funds, there is the skill, but we cant find the people to pull this off because... few know about what is an "IAR"... probably I was to subtle in my previous message, so I wrote it now directly.

4. Hungary is a model for us, since we are way behind them now. In the past we had a history greater than theirs, what aviation is concerned.

I am pretty sure my message was clear, if not for the people taking phrases out of context and directing attacks... well its still an improvement since this time I aint a clone...

wow... good luck RO with this mentality

This post has been edited by RedBaron on December 08, 2010 05:27 pm

Getting enough money to publish a book without business case (aviation history doesn't generate profit) is very difficult. Imagine getting enough money to build a 1:1 flying replica. We are talking about several hundreds of thousands of Euros.

The rest of your post is just your regular agenda, this time without saying directly what you are referring to, although it is clear as daylight. It is also offtopic.

if its off-topic what is stopping you from locking this topic?

does it disturb you that I said that we, as a nation, are lacking mentality? or what is off-topic and why?

if part of us (as in nation) would know and respect history, maybe... just maybe, a few of the richer guys wouldnt buy the latest Mercedes AMG SUVs and put some money for reviving the IAR80? your friend google will tell you how much a Merc AMG ML 63 cost (100k +) that is one piece, of the many we see on the streets ... do the math.
as for the book, same reasons it is not selling... who cares to read about the IAR, besides some of us? write a book about real estate opportunities or fast cars or something related... you might do a profit.

hell, in other countries, rich people prefer to have the Mustang - the plane and not the car... but what do I know, I am only an extremist / mad man or whatever. no match for the high moral of the debates around here btw, thanks for the label, I will be sure to stick with it.

mentality is what we are lacking, not money, not skills.

word up!

This post has been edited by RedBaron on December 08, 2010 05:49 pm

Red Baron,
OK, let me make is simple for you: No amount of populist speech will make a IAR80 fly. The people who can make it fly are looking into it and if it will happen, it will happen because of their effort and interest, not because of some hollow slogans, Nae Catavencu speeches and random buzz-words. And those who are looking into this (hint, some of them are on this forum and maybe even wrote in this thread ) do not care much about your tone and rhetoric.
Radu

Honestly, dont take any offense, but I think you do not understand English... I would write in RO if it would be allowed.

I have opened this topic by posting a question at which you answered saying that you cannot redirect me to any facts about this project. Now you are stating that the involved people are looking on this forum... so... what is it in the end? Do you know who is into this project or dont you? [Is it a secret project? So... it remains secret or do they need as much exposure as possible to attract... say funds?]

Secondly, someone said its a matter of money and then I replied, that imo, not money are the problem but mentality. I know of many cases of Mustangs, Spits, Hurricanes, 109s, Fokkers, etc, being rebuilt. Many of those people had some sponsorship and passion, but mostly they knew that the planes were part of their history and people, companies supported such projects... (i.e. mentality) in many ways. Some with money, others in various ways.
So I ask again, are there any facts for this project, is there a forum where people discuss this or not? Simple question.

If we bitch about lack of money each day, ok then, we dont have money. We are the country in which Ferrari sold all its cars that were assigned to be sold in half of the estimated period... dont worry, there are enough money - so bitching about lack of it is not part of the solution.
I bet you the Hungarians did not bitch because of the crisis and pulled out something majestic for their HUNAF anniversary, while our super NATO - US supporting nation wasnt able to honor the ROAF with more than the obsolete MiG 29s LanceR and some paratroopers... Its also about the interest one shows, some kind of strategy... money will come if you know how to attract them... whatever.

There isnt any populist speech on my behalf - you can distort as much as you wish my message, the fact remains that our nation lacks mentality. Period. If this is populist speech... If we have the plans and we have the expertise, we could at least try to attract the needed funds - if you allow me to speculate. Staying on our knees and crying all day wont help (I am talking in general). I dont know anything about this project, so I am asking... again, is it only an idea, is there a group involved, what?
I know planes dont fly because we imagine them, so... lets save this artificial reply.

This post has been edited by RedBaron on December 08, 2010 08:03 pm

Hello! The Ferrari "buyers" are NOT the same with IAR-80 fans!
And as for Romanian History, well, you can (almost) count on the fingers of a myriapode's hand ( ) the real patriots, those who really love this country!

Is there any truth in the part "survivors" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAR80 that states an IAR80 was rebuilt and shown after the fall of communism?

Probably not (Ferrari fans being IAR fans), but if we are to speculate, there are people in this country that can afford 100k + euro cars. There are people with big egos, dont worry - get some interested, you will build 5 IARs... again to speculate
So we dont lack money, we need to attract them.

If you check out, all the similar "plane revivals" are more or less public projects, with sponsors and such... There are also private efforts, but few.

Secondly, patriots do not exist you say. I wont contradict you, but why arent they in greater numbers? After all, many of our grandfathers fought in WW2. So, why the interest for ww2 and RO involvement is so reduced? You have the answers, I wont "speculate" further because it could be interpreted as populism. I will say... mentality?

This post has been edited by RedBaron on December 08, 2010 08:27 pm

I did not approach the build of a IAR-80 as business. As you mentioned, there would be no prospective buyers. Actually, a single operational IAR-80 attending 2...3 aerial shows per year would do enough to support "the goal".
I considered strictly the cost of building it. Rebuilding an engine would be the most expensive thing. Using an available radial air cooled of 950 HP would make the project cheaper, but these "oldies" may be hard to find.
Using a different engine contradicts the quest to respect the original, but others turn it around as well. There is a company making today a replica of Me-262, and their two jet engines are more powerful than the original Jumo engines. However, I understand they inserted a limitation which automatically limit the plane to the speed of the old Me-262.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 08, 2010 08:37 pm