Romanian small arms production

Buna ziua,

I am interested in obtaining information about any Romanian-made small arms built up to 1945. I am mostly looking for details on locally developed small arms, but I am also interested in foreign designs produced under licence. By the way, I am aware that the Cugir factory manufactured the excellent Czech ZB 30 LMG under licence. I also have some details on the Orita SMG. Unfortunately, the articles on the last mentioned gun, published in some Western sources in recent times (namely the one in the French periodical "Gazette des Armes") are somewhat lacking in what pertains to origins, development details, war and post-war use, etc.
I would gladly welcome info on any books or magazine articles that may have been published in Romania on the subject. Any information on local one-off prototypes and the like is more than welcome too.

Another question concerns aviation guns: was there any attempt to manufacture local copies of foreign a/c guns used by the A.R.R. (the excellent F.N.-Browning guns are an example of what I am saying) or even independent designs? The Finns did it and produced quite a number of different types of aircraft mgs.

As for pistols, I understand that the needs of the Romanian military forces were partially addressed for by the robust Steyr 1912 and the much handier, yet less powerful Beretta M. 1934, in 9mm Short (properly labelled "Scurt", as I saw in a gun from the Romanian contract).

Last but not the least, it is interesting to verify that - apparently, of course - no effort was made towards the local production of military rifles in large scale (no matter how good the vz. 24 was, and it was indeed one of the best Mauser short rifles using the Gew. 98 bolt ever made). The Poles have done it, as the Yugoslavs (after some refurbishing of older rifles and orders from F.N., they settled their own production line at Kragujevac). Was there any attempt to start a local production of the vz. 24 or any other similar rifle?

Thanks in advance for your help and attention. Multumesc!
Yours,

Ruy Aballe

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on September 27, 2004 05:30 pm

9mm Orita Model 1941 Submachine Gun

7.92mm Light Machine Gun Model ZB - 1930

Thank you very much! I didn't knew the Orita article. It is much better than the one I mentioned a while back... It was indeed a very interesting SMG design on its own.
As for the ZB 30, I already knew it. Please note that the F.A.O. (Fusil Ametrallador Oviedo) LMG manufactured by the state arsenal of Oviedo in Spain, from 1941 on, wasn't a direct copy of the ZB 30. It incorporated some improvements - namely some shortcuts intended to simplify manufacture - and no licence fees were paid for it... Basically, it was a simplified version of the original Czech design, adapted to Spanish production methods. Anyway, the Spanish arms industry had a long and fruitful experience with the design of LMGs, which started in the '20's (Astra M1927, Fusil Ametrallador Trapote, the F.A. O.C, etc).
Yours,

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on September 27, 2004 08:31 pm

Ruy

I dont think Romania made huge amounts of military small arms before 1945.
I cant seem to find much info on this myself. The only thing I can tell you about production is. I know that they made Mosen Nagant M44, SKS and AK's where made in Romania. But the production of those guns were well after 1945.

They stated with the M44 in 1953. Romania also had some Mosen Nagent M91/30's there where marked on there stocks with the word "INSTRUCTIE". These rifles were put in reserve for secondary line defense in case of a invasion. These "INSTRUCTIE" rifle usally very old production Russian made. From dates like 1907 to 1920 so the rifles are very old. Most of these guns also look really beat up and have seen alot of use. But that may be from when there where used before Romania got them. All the ones that I have seem all seem to have been made in Russian factorys. But when Romania got them they painted the ends of the stocks black and painted white letters "INSTRUCTIE" on them. Also there was one marked "EXERCITIU" wich is for training only. And something new I have seen here. I have seem some VZ-24 Romanian contract rifles. That have a red stripe paintied on the stock and marked with the "INSTRUCTIE" also. But this looks to be very rare.

Well I dont know if this helps you much. But I thought I was pass on some info that I know.

Dou25,

Thank you very much for the information. The marking practices on training rifles you mention are of much interest to me!
I have seen Romanian-made Mosin M 44 carbines and a single SKS, the former from a batch in very good condition, the later showing much more use.

The "INSTRUCTIE" marking on the vz. 24's is also a very welcome detail. In this case, as I can deduct from your words, we can expect rifles that have seen a lot of use in the hands of conscripts. By the way, can you please tell if the Czech Mausers were used into the "Kalashnikov Era", i.e., the 70's or even the early 80's (in the training role, of course)?
A good friend from Bucharest has told me some time ago that she received - as every able student in those times, I suppose - some military training when she was a teenager, during her high school years. She recalls having fired a .22 rifle, apparently with very good results for someone who was using a firearm for the first time. This happened in the mid/late 80's and albeit this is off-topic (regarding my opening post), I presume the rifle to be of Romanian manufacture.
I look forward to hear news from you soon.
Thanks again for your help!

Ruy

Around 5,000 VZ 30 LMGs were built by CMC and for Orita, apparently, over 25,000 were built during and after the war (see the excellent article of Liviu Plavcan).

Ruy

I think the answer to you question about was the VZ-24 used in the 70's and 80's. I would say pretty much no. I think by that time these rilfes where all oiled up and where in stoage. To be sold off or maybe to be used in really extream case. This I think holds true to the M-44's and the M91/30' INSTRUCTE rifles. The reasion I say this is. By the 70's and into the 80's the SKS was well into its production. I think this SKS prduction stated in the mid or late 60's 1967 for some reason seems like the first year for them. But I could be wrong about that but I am very shure it was in 60's. I think by the 70's the AK was the main use gun.

There was a gun that was made for training call a AKT-98. This gun looks very much like a AK but it is in .22 cal. I'm not shure of when these where made and used.

Then there is the training rilfe that I think your friend used. This rifle would be a M69 military training rilfe. These where used through the 70's and 80's. These rilfes are bolt action and have a hooded front sight. So in some ways they can kinda look like a VZ-24. The story with these M69 is they where not really used buy military personal. These rifles where sent to hospitals and schools. To train nurses, doctors and students how to use them. These students and doctors and nurses. Where given a kinda of crash course in how to load fire and aim the rifle. This was all done incase of the need to defend the homeland. This homeland defense attitude of training the public in weapon use. Is like if we get invaded we will defend to the end. Kinda down to the last person alive. It was in this area the M91/30 "INSTRUCTIE where used to. Its just the M69's where not around right after WWII. These M91/30's where replaced by the M69's. But they are used for the same purpose. So I dont think they where used by conscripts. These M91/30's I think where old beat up ones laying in sotage somewhere in Russia. And the Russians did not want them. So they gave them to Romania. Kind like in a "As is" condition. I think the only use these M91's and M69's saw. Was from just the use from tranining and shooting.

Also the M69's some where made for export to other countries that would buy them.

See Romania was very much into defending its self from invasion from other countries. And in the times of the 60's 70's and 80's communist Russia was not well liked.

I hope all this info helps you out. If you have anymore questions please post them. I like talking about militay small arms and Romania.

Ruy

I was wrong about the sks production years. They where made from 1956 to 1960.
The guns that got the "INSTRUCTE" painted on them where. M91/30's M38 carbines and a few M-44's and VZ-24's and some other mauser 98k's.
The "INSTRUCTE" rife came into existence in 1968. This is because Czechoslovakia was invated buy the Sovites. So Romania was fearful of a invasion they stated to collcet all these old rilfes. Most of them where M91/30's and I was wrong that they came from Russia. Most of them where made there. But these "INSTRUCTIE" rifles came from the Balkans. Also Nicolai Ceausescu and Tito of Yugoslavia. Formed mutual defense pact between the two countries. Incase of a invasion from the Soviets or a joint Soviet/Bulgarian invasion. Romania was not going to let the Soviets do what they did in Czechoslovakia.

The thought of haveing the general populace haveing and useing these arms. Is that if a invasion happend. And the Military was overrun the people could help the army fight the invators. The thinking behind this was also it could buy Romania time. To allow the Yugoslavians and the Chinese to come aid them.

In 1968 tensions were high in Romania. Romania has always look in the direction of independence.

Also The plant in cugir layed off 27,500 workers in February 2001. That left them with about 18,500 workers there. So they stoped all AK production at that time. The only eastern european country still producing the AK I think is Bulgaria.

In 2004 Romanian Government split the factory from Cugir in 2 companies. One of them, "Fabrica de Arme" Cugir still manufacture AK with NATO calibers. Those companies belongs to "Romarm" a state-owned company. Many AK (modified) were shipped this year to US to be sold to the collectors.
You could check also on e-bay. I saw a lot with prices between 250 USD to 600 USD/piece

They also produce and sell PSLs under the commercial name of ROmak-3 or SSG-97

Dou25,
Please check the website of ROMARM (Cugir Factory belonging to):
http://www.romarm.ro/infantry.htm

Edited: Also check the website of their rival company ROMTEHNICA:
http://www.romtehnica.com.ro/

Note that ROMARM belongs to Ministry of Industry and Resources and ROMTEHNICA belongs to Ministry of Defence.

This post has been edited by Dani on September 28, 2004 01:32 pm

Thanks for that info Dani and Victor.

I did not know that Romarm was makeing AK's in NATO calibers.

So I have a question. What is the main issued gun today in the Romanian Army?
Is it a model of the AK-47 that shoots a NATO round?

I would think it would be some gun that shoots a NATO around. Now that Romanian is a member of NATO.

Thanks again for this information.

This is a very interesting thread inedeed!
Thanks for your notes on Romanian small arms, Dou25. So, then the gun my friend might have used is the M 69! This is an interesting detail.
Still, I think there's a big difference between using a .22 rifle (I presume the M 69 was a .22 gun) and a full power, bolt-action rifle, no matter how old, like the "INSTRUCTIE" Mosins you mention, for training first-timers with no experience at all with firearms: a .22 rifle makes much more sense in that context. By the way, did you know until when the M 69 was kept in active use in Romania?
The civil defense concept you mention is also noteworthy and quite understandable during the nerve-racking period that followed the Russian (with help from most Warsaw Pact members) invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, but I don't think the Yugoslavs could provide fast (or willing...) assistance, in spite of the mutual defence pact signed between Tito and Ceausescu, in case of a Soviet invasion, nor for, that matter, the Chinese...

Please note that the Poles still build a series of assault rifles that are, basically, AK derivatives. For a while they used the wz. 89 Tantal (based on the AK-74 and still chambered for the 5,45mm ammo - a version firing NATO ammunition, the wz. 90, was not accepted by the Polish Army). Apparently, the 5,45mm round is no longer made in Poland and the rifles are being used for training purposes only until the stocks get exhausted... The current Polish issue rifle is the wz. 96 Beryl family, in 5,56mm NATO calibre.

Still on vz. 24, I recall having handled and fired one rifle, bought by a friend from Madrid in "as is" condition some ten years ago.
It was in fairly good overall condition, but it had only circa 50% of the blue left. The stock showed that the rifle saw a lot of use, with many dings and scratches, but no visible cracks. The Romanian crest was efaced in a careful and eficient way (much like in the case of most Argentine Mausers cleared for export purposes by the Argentine military, and quite unlikely the clumsy way in which the Imperial Crysantemum was removed from the receivers of many Arisaka rifles and carbines). The interesting point about the stock was the existence of remnants of a dark, almost brick red, painted band. However, no significant marks were found, neither on the receiver nor on the stock itself. In spite of its appearance, the rifle was a great shooter as we soon discovered, much to my friend amazement! Maybe the ammo had something to do with the end results, but the bore was in fine condition, without signs of corrosion. We used specially loaded rounds, coupling Norma boat-tailed bullets, Portuguese FNM brass and French Vectan powder. It was a nice experience, mostly for my friend, who was (and still is) used to buy and fire rifles in much better condition... The rifle performed as well as a minty Spanish M. 1943 Mauser short rifle made at Oviedo! The only 7,92mm rifle that out-performed it that afternoon was a Portuguese Vergueiro M.904/37. The best rifle on show was a magnificent, as-new Swiss K. 31 in 7,5x55mm, but that was another story as the saying goes...
Unfortunately, and since the gun lacked the Romanian crest, he restored it shortly after, reblueing all steel parts. The stock was carefully refinished and the old red band disapeared - it was flaking anyway.
Buna seara,

Ruy

when was the ZB-53 introduced and did it ever replace the M07/12.

The ZB 53/Vz 37 was probably introduced in 1938, as it was ordered before Czechoslovakia was partly occupied by Germany. But it never full replaced the older MGs in service the Maxim 1910 and Schwarzlose 07/12 were used along side the ZB 53 and Mg 34 in WWII. The Romanian Maxim and the french Hotchikiss and St Etienne and other WWI MG's like the Vikers were probaly out of use as the spare parts run out. The Vikers was abandoned because the .303 was not common in the Romanian army as it was only used in these HMG's and some WWI airplanes.