1968 - Russian-Romanian tensions, The Czechoslovak scenario in Romania?

Max age for flying is 50 for jet and 52 for classic (propeller) aircraft, after which military pilots are retired.

There were American pilots from WW II who also took part in action in Vietnam.
One example, at random:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Olds

In primary school I also heard the laser tank "urban myth", from my colleagues. My generation did not like the Russians since we started to walk... This does not mean anything, other than the "urban myth" being well spread.
By 1968 Romania was able to build laser technology, but I think no country in the world was able to use it as weapon back then.
Today it is well known that Reagan's "star wars" anti-missile laser was a dream, but it seems Soviet Union believed it.
Few years ago in the U.S. was carried a successful test where a powerful laser gun destroyed a missile or a drone. I guess they dream that eventually to kick off satellites with the laser gun.

PS: OK, so the the Empire's land destroyers have the Romanian marks...
The good part: Romania is a Galactic Empire of the future.
The bad part: Romania is an evil Galactic Empire, and the good guys are teaming against it.
I think the photo was taken when the Jedi and the clones were still fighting side by side against the robots and drones, so the land destroyer with Romanian marks was on the good side.



This post has been edited by Florin on December 21, 2011 01:36 am

A comrade from my platoon told me that when the fear of Warsaw Pact was at its peak in 1968, his father with 2 fellow workers from 23 August plants (the former Malaxa plants) were given a machine gun which they installed in a church's tower, in a village. In those days the Romanians got into the "invasion fear" fever...
Then, to kill time and boredom, the guys tuned their radio to "Radio Moskow" in Romanian... The Soviets were quite upset about what was happening in Romania, and the message was: "How do the Romanian leadership believe that Romania can resist to Red Army? Don't they understand that we did not enter in Romania just because we don't want that?"

On my behalf, I learned with surprise under this topic that the plans to invade Romania were real. Deadly real...

Yes, the soviet plans to invade Romania in 1968 were probably real. Romania draw it's own plan for defence. It seems that romanians contacted Yugoslavia based on scenario of romanian army was defeated by soviets, asking from Yugoslavia to allow romanian armed forces who survived a posible battle against russians to retreat on yugo teritory, much as the polish army retreated in Romania in 1939.

True, 21 inf, but I have to add this :
- Romania was confronted not only with a disproportionately strong opponent, but with an army command where many senior officers and generals were educated in USSR (we now know precisely the high degree of recruitment of the GRU of the officers who were studying in USSR), with the fact that the opponent knew well enough the composition, arrangement in the territory of the big units of the Romanian Army, the fact that the Romanian army had a lower degree of mechanization compared with Czechoslovakia f.i. (I refer here to less modern tanks, low level of transport and armored vehicles for infantry a.o.), large portions of national territory not covered with troops in case of war, a.o.

In primary school I also heard the laser tank "urban myth", from my colleagues. My generation did not like the Russians since we started to walk... This does not mean anything, other than the "urban myth" being well spread.
By 1968 Romania was able to build laser technology, but I think no country in the world was able to use it as weapon back then.
Today it is well known that Reagan's "star wars" anti-missile laser was a dream, but it seems Soviet Union believed it.
Few years ago in the U.S. was carried a successful test where a powerful laser gun destroyed a missile or a drone. I guess they dream that eventually to kick off satellites with the laser gun.

PS: OK, so the the Empire's land destroyers have the Romanian marks...
The good part: Romania is a Galactic Empire of the future.
The bad part: Romania is an evil Galactic Empire, and the good guys are teaming against it.
I think the photo was taken when the Jedi and the clones were still fighting side by side against the robots and drones, so the land destroyer with Romanian marks was on the good side.

The story of ze mighty laser weapon
As everyone around i think, i heard too about it, and i read/heard quite few variants about it.

One is that it wasnt an actual laser, it was just called like that because peoples back then didnt know much about such technologies. The weapon was actualy a plasma jet guided through some specific directional electromagnetic waves, or something like that, dont remember exact, and physic isnt my favourite science. The plasma "ball" or so, depending of the power used by the weapon, either make a big hole in the target, either vaporized it with all. The weapon elements was small enough to be adapted and used on heavy trucks or tanks chassis so making mobile enough

Other variants are more simple, like Soviets tried a "recon in force" mission, and send some tanks over the border. Soon after the first tank crossed the border it was destroyied, either after it rolled over an AT land mine, either after was hit by an AT gun or missile.
Soviets send after a while another single tank, on the tracks left by the first one, and recover it.

Another variant was that China said that will help us vigorously in case of war (they just had some border clashes with USSR same year i think, and we was good buddies), and even USA asked USSR to not start a war. Because it was obvious we'll fight back, unlike Czeckoslovakia, and things can get messy. I read as well that at military parade held in Bucharest, on 23 August, just the Patriotic Guard gathered in Bucharest marched for a half an hour (there was tens of thousands of peoples who joined them) in front of official tribune. Later on it was calculated that in the case of applying the military doctrine of "war of the entire people" back then, it was needed for a supposedly invading force to use 1 million soldiers just to mantain their occupation of main cities and logistic routes, but kinda impossible to control the entire country

Fact is that very strange for that moment, Soviets didnt do anything against us, not even some recon flights, or send some ships near our waters, even if is clear by now that they did have real plans to invade Romania, and they tried to get rid of Ceausescu up to 1989, by any means possible, except a direct military one.

This post has been edited by udar on December 22, 2011 04:27 pm

Obviously I've heard from many sources, the legend of the Romanian Laser who burned some soviet tanks (I heard a version including incident location - near Siret city in Bukovina) but I also heard something which seems to be more plausible! In Ungheni major Soviet units were concentrated, and in late august a Soviet military delegation presented at the romanian border to request free passage on romanian territory because they received orders in this respect and want to avoid bloodshed! The Romanian border guard officer replied that something like that it's not possible, if the Soviet troops will cross the border they will be met with fire by his men, he had received clear orders in this regard and he we will follow this orders!
Do you heard this story? (I heard this story from a neighbor who was an NCO in Timisoara Motorized Division back in 1968)

And this you call "plausible"???? Have you EVER heard of such a gallant behaviour from Soviet troops?
From what I've read, the USSR didn't really want to invade us, for two reasons:
1. Two countries in the same year would have been way too much for everybody (public oppinion, Western countries etc.)
2. Romania didn't threaten with pluri-partidism or leaving the Warsaw Treaty (like Czechoslovakia did) and Ceausescu was not perceived as a real non-communist leader.

Some of you might be aware of the theory according to which Romania was "allowed" to pretend it is "out of order" within the Soviet Bloc, just to have a link with the Occident! I do not completely agree with it, but it seems more plausible than the laser that scared the Soviet Union!

The laser story may be true. Maybe we are so advanced in laser technology that they decided to build this here:

Starting with 2015, Romania will have the most powerful laser in the world that researchers will use for high energy nuclear experiments, with results expected to exceed the laws of relativity.

http://climatechange.thinkaboutit.eu/think...ready_to_commit

And this you call "plausible"???? Have you EVER heard of such a gallant behaviour from Soviet troops?
From what I've read, the USSR didn't really want to invade us, for two reasons:
1. Two countries in the same year would have been way too much for everybody (public oppinion, Western countries etc.)
2. Romania didn't threaten with pluri-partidism or leaving the Warsaw Treaty (like Czechoslovakia did) and Ceausescu was not perceived as a real non-communist leader.

Some of you might be aware of the theory according to which Romania was "allowed" to pretend it is "out of order" within the Soviet Bloc, just to have a link with the Occident! I do not completely agree with it, but it seems more plausible than the laser that scared the Soviet Union!

That theory was made up by Pacepa, as a cover for his betrayal (he was probably a KGB agent, and probably his mission was to make Romania to look bad for USA). You should read what Larry Watts write (i think he was already mentioned).
Not just that Romania wasnt pretending is out of order, but USSR (and its subordinated countries from WP) tried by all means (except military one) to bring back Romania "at order".

After 1990 some archives (as ones of STASI) was open for study by some researchers, and it was pretty clear that Romania was saw as an enemy almost at the same level as a NATO country. More then that, in any Warsaw Pact war plans with NATO, Romania wasnt included, as far as i know. All this was secret, until after 1990, when some archives start to be more open.

And it doesnt matter what regime was in Romania, democratic or not it was still an enemy, and i am sure USSR wished to change that. China was communist too, and still they had military clashes at borders in Siberia.

So it is way more probable that something (i am not say it was necessary a "laser" weapon, but i dont exclude either that some kind of weapon system made them to think twice) made USSR to step back, and dont follow those war plans they made

I dont think i heard about this story, but is not that implausible. In Czeckoslovakia Soviets had many spies and even military intelligence personnel inflitrated in the country, to check the possible reactions and to make easy the arrival of WP troops. Soviet airplanes with troops who landed on Praga airport for ex., arrived after Soviet GRU and Spetznas ellements took control of the airport

I will not exclude that some Soviet officers tried to see what possible reaction they may encounter in such case, especially as they doesnt had any intelligence sources at the level they had in other WP countries (in 1964 was a cleansing of Soviets collaborators in both the Army and Securitate).

It isnt a gallant act, but a normal one to know at least a bit about what might happen in that case (especially if they heard about a previous crossing of border, when some of their tanks was vaporized )

This post has been edited by udar on December 23, 2011 10:17 am

Indeed udar,
I also thought on this issue (they tested our reaction) and not to the totally nonspecific (for the soviets) elegant gesture! I also agree with you about the origin of the theory according to which USSR would never have wanted to invade Romania because the communist system was not threatened here - this theory was made to minimize the acts of independence of Romania and to discredit the favorable opinion of Western Powers towards Romania!
I also read Larry Watts book who is excellent!

All right, but I have a question:
WHY would the USSR have wanted to invade Romania? (compared with Hungary 1956 and/or Czechoslovakia 1968)

To answer you I should get to read the chapter of the book written by Larry Watts (is very documented!) but I did't reach that chapter yet! So an answer I can give now is only on the other books I read so far, which dealt with the invasion of Czechoslovakia, not with the possible invasion of Romania! My assumption is going on the foots of Brezhnev doctrine, even if in Romania the communist system was not in danger, the romanian autonomous policy embodied especially in foreign policy and defense, visibly disturbed Moscow!