47mm ATGs, 47mm ATGs

[YAN]

Hi, did the Schneider 47mm M.36 have the same armour penetration as the other two 47mm used by the Romanians.
47mm M.35 Breda 43mm @ 500m
47mm M.35 Bohler 43 @ 500m
(was these two the same gun ? the italain 47mm was a copy of the Bohler)

[Mircea87]

The Schneider had a higher muzzle velocity and a better penetration (70 mm at 400 m at 30° according to a book by Stéphane Ferrard). The Bohler/Breda 47 mm AT guns had a penetration of about 43 mm at 500 metres (I'm guessing that this is a 90 degrees angle, got this from wikipedia's article about the Cannone da 47/32 M35). The muzzle velocity of the Schneider was 750 m/s and the Breda/Bohler had 630 m/s, this is why the Schneider was superior.

[YAN]

Thanks Mircea, I cannot find any data from the French over this 47mm gun, it must have not been adopted by the French Army and only sold as export, I have some data on other various 47mm,

Belgian: 47mm L/33 S.A. F.R.C. Anti-Tank Gun
Dutch: 47mm L/35.8 Siderius Infantry Gun
Austrian: 47mm L/39.4 Böhler M.39 Infantry Gun
Czech: 47mm L/43 P.U.V. Vz-36 Anti-Tank Gun
Italian: 47mm L/32 Breda M.35 Anti-Tank Gun
French: 47mm L/53 SA-37 Puteaux Anti-Tank Gun

It wouldn’t surprise me if there was more, I think Böhler produced many different types of both infantry and anti-tank guns.

[Mircea87]

I actually did some small research about this gun, it's indeed an unique AT gun. I still don't have any idea on what it was based, it seems to have been designed as a private venture by Schneider. The prototype was sold to Romania and modified according to the need of the Romanian army before being produced. That is why in sometimes appears as a 1936/39 model. There are a few facts that still don't make sense: weight varies between 528 and 628 kg (it might be just a spelling error, I doubt it was that light, those wheels seem heavy), max range 6700 vs 7100m, the AP stats are also quite different in Romanian sources: 40 mm at 500m (Stéphane Ferrard mentions 70 mm at 400 m at 30°). It also appears to have been kept until 1949 in inventory. The ammo was also unique at the time in came into production: 47x380R 47mm Mle 1937 - Cartouche a Obus de Rupture Mle38 I think was the official designation in French.

http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tun_antitanc_...7_mm_model_1936
It's in Romanian, but use Google translate and ask if you have any other questions. I haven't written the small description because of the rather scarce info.

[Kiasutha]

Regarding the Boehler/Breda 47mm ATG-
Does anyone know if Romania used, or had it's own version of the more effective Italian "effetto pronto" ammunition for this weapon?

From what I've read, the Schneider 47mm was designed with French army service in mind, but it was rejected in favor of the heavier, more powerful APX 47mm AT gun.
The Schneider weapons and manufacturing license were then sold to Romania.
Jim R.

[Mircea87]

I don't know about other factories, but the book about Concordia says that: "two types of 47 mm ammo were produced, of which one was unknown in Europe until 1938". The Romanian engineers also seem to have modified the brass cases in order to increase the performance (some "inspiration" came from German and Russian equipment), but the end result was unsatisfactory.

By the way, can someone please identify this 47 mm projectile? I think it was made at Concordia, but I'm not sure about the markings:



A number of specs from Franz Kosar, page 165:

47 mm L/44, elevation: +15, traverse 45, weight 628 kg, AP shell weight 2,3 kg, HE shell weight 1,48 kg, muzzle velocity FOR THE HE shell 675 m/s, max range 6,7 km.

There are no specs for the AP velocity and armour penetration in this book.

This post has been edited by Mircea87 on June 22, 2011 01:51 pm

[YAN]

Hi Mircea, I have the m.1936/39 as L/53, am I wrong with this because you had it as L/44,
Regards Yan.

[Mircea87]

You might be confusing the 47 mm Schneider Mle 1936/39 (L/44) with the 47 mm Mle 39 (L/53), also known as SA 39 APX (TAZ), made by Puteaux, which was to enter production in late 1940.

[YAN]

Thanks Mircea, I have this data thanks to your advice,

4.7cm Schneider anti-tank gun model 1936/39
Data: used by both the Infantry & Cavalry Anti-Tank Gun Platoons.
Amount: 300
Calibre: 47mm
Barrel length: 2.497m L/44 * (I may have got the wrong length in metres)
Elevation: -13° to +16° * (some say 15°)
Traverse: 60° * (some say 50°)
Weight in action: 628 kg
Shell weight: 2.3 kg (AP) 1.48 kg (HE)
Muzzle velocity: 750 m/s (AP) 675 m/s (HE)
Practical rate of fire: 18 rpm
Armour penetration: 40mm @ 500m @ 30°
Max range: 6.700m
Crew: 6
Traction: Malaxa UE Tractor

I have left an * if I have made a mistake Mircea.
Regards Yan.

[Mircea87]

Amount: 300+ (the number of AT guns produced were far in excess of the original contract to replace losses throughout the war)
Barrel length: 44 x 47 mm = 2068 mm that is 2,068 m I think
Elevation: + 15°
Traverse: 45°

The armour penetration specs are still a mistery for me, as a Romanian source ("165 de ani de existenta a artileriei moderne" page 410) states 40/5000 (obviously a typo there, 500 m is the distance) which is actually 3 mm lower than the Bohler and Italian 47 mm AT guns. Stéphane Ferrard mentions in his book about the French army equipment in 1940 a superior armour penetration of 70 mm at 400 m at 30° for the Schneider Mle 1936. The AP shells used for these results are unknown and might actually be of different types. Also, I don't know if Ferrard mentioned the original prototype' specs or the Schneider-Concordia' specs.

Well, at least some details are clear now. Can you tell from what sources you have the different traverse/elevation specs?

[YAN]

I cant remeber the souce I have stuff on the Hard Drive for years, in fact I have found this when I was looking for data last night.

Canon de 47mm L/50 Mle1937 (SA37)
Caliber : 47x380R mm
Crew : 1 NCO + 5 men
Weight : 1,050 – 1,150kg (depending from type of wheels and carriage manufacturer)
Length : 3,95m (firing position) / 4.10m (moving configuration)
Width : 3.70m (firing position) / 1.62m (moving configuration)
Height : 1.21m (firing position) / 1.10m (moving configuration)
Weight : 300kg
Barrel length : 2,393m (1,90m rifling)
Rate of fire : 15-20 rpm
Traverse : 68° (1 wheel turn = 1°5 in traverse)
Elevation : -13° to +16.30° (1 wheel turn = 1°4 in elevation)
Telescopic sight : 4x (L.748 telescopic sight, field of view 10.13°, + reticle, adjustable drum up to 3,500m)
Emergency sight : 200 to 800m by increment of 200m
V° : 855 m/s
Practical AT range : 1,000m (maximum range of 6,500m)
Accuracy : 65 x 150cm at 1,600m and 41 x 63cm at 1,000m.
Penetration : 106mm/0° at 100m ; 89mm/0° at 500m ; 72mm/0° at 1,000m ; 57mm/0° at 1,000m [another source specifies hardened/cemented armor and gives 92.5mm/0° at 100m ; 77mm/0° at 500m].

Obus de rupture Mle1936 (APCBC) - in German service : Pzgr 178(f) -
Caliber : 47x380R mm
Weight of projectile : 1.726 kg (1.710 kg without ballistic cap)
Length of projectile : 192 mm (APC 144.5mm + BC 92mm, total length of the shell : 555.5mm)
V° = 855 m/s

Obus explosif Mle1932 M39 (HE) - in German service : Pzgr 181(f) -
Caliber : 47x380R mm
Weight of projectile : 1.410 kg (142g explosive)
V° = 590 m/s
Modified Mle1932 HE projectile, usually with a Gaba Mle1932 fuze.

Thanks Mircea,
Regards Yan.