Romanian Schwarzlose machine gun

Hello,

I am new to this forum and I found it to be the best place for my research on Romanian Schwarzlose machine gun.

I am preparing an article to be published in a gun magazine on Schwarzlose machine guns belts and belt loading machines.

I am currently investigating the field of Romanian Schwarzlose.

Can anyone confirm that after WW1, Romania used Austrian M7/12 Schwarzlose in their original caliber of 8x50R Mannlicher.

How long were these 8x50R Schwarzlose in service in the Romanian Army ?

Did Romania ever used Schwarzlose in 7,92x57 Mauser ?
Were they bought already rechambered for 7,92 from Czechoslovakia (Schwarzlose M24) or was the modification from 8x50R to 7,92 done in Romania (by Cugir ?).

There are metallic belts for Schwarzlose in caliber 7,92 that are supposed to come from Romania. They are 100-rounds and are marked on starter "CR LOT xxx" or also "CR LOTU xxx".
Can anyone confirm that these metallic belts are Romanian (Romanian made or imported to Romania ?).
When was this metalllic belt adopted ?
What is the meaning of "CR" ?



I have both belt loaders for original 8x50R rounds (feeding by 5-round Mannlicher clips) and the same loader reworked for 7,92x57 and the metallic belt.
We suppose both are from Romania, is this correct ?


Schwarzlose loader dated 1918 for 8x50R round supposed to have been reused by Romania ?


Same type of loader as before, also dated 1918 but modified for the metallic belt : Romanian conversion ?

Thank you for any comment or help regarding the Romanian Schwarzlose,

Cheers,

C.R. mayby abreviation from Cugir Romania or Cartuse Romanesti ? ( romanian shells)
Lot ( or Lotu) is definetly romanian word for batch.
I 'm not specialist in Schwarzlose machine, but I know at least one is exibited in Military museum in Bucharest.

What I d like to add, a twin arrangment Schwarzlose sistem was used by some romanian AA units. I don't know if they were manufactured at Cugir or taken from the navy.
Below are some pictures courtesy Gral ( retired AA ) Mircea Balanescu.





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Thank you Cantacuzino for your answer and the interesting pictures.

Here after the pic of another starter with the wording "LOTUL".

If LOTU has been determined as Romanian, could you please confirm that LOTUL is also Romanian ?



Cheers,

LOTUL is the plural of LOT and LOTU is an arhaic form of LOTUL.

As I said on Axist History forum, C.R. may stand for CARTUSE RAZBOI (war cartridges) as different for CARTUSE DE MANEVRA (training cartridges)

Definetly romanian

Lot = batch
Loturi = batches ( plural)
Lotul = the batch
Lotu = arhaic form of Lotul
I agree with Dragos that CR means Cartuse de Razboi

The complete translation

C.R. (Cartuse de razboi) Lotul No. 00 = War cartridges, The batch No. 00
or
C.R. Lot No. 14 = War cartridges, Batch No. 14

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on December 01, 2010 04:06 am

Cantacuzino:
Thanks very much for posting the photos of the twin AA mount!
I have been looking for a picture of this weapon for a long time.
Do you know what types of unit (especially army)would have used this weapon?
Thanks again,
James
(in USA)

Thank you very much for the confirmation of the markings C.R. LOTUL N° ...

Is there any information provided in an official Romanian manual about the use of that metal belt for Schwarzlose ?



Best regards,

What was the effective range for Schwartzlose M.1907/12 ?
Thanks Yan.

The maximum range is about 2000m but this varies as at this range you need optics, at least a pair of binocular to correct the fire. With the iron sights about 600m, but depending on the size of the target / targets.

The 7,92x57 conversion for the Schwarzlose was made before WWII by Fabrique National for Romania, the conversion was not made in Romania as it was very complicated, not a simple barrel change. Romania was able to produce replacement barrels for Schwarzlose and Maxim 1910 in their original caliber.

In my opinion CR stands for "Comisia de Receptie" Reception committee, I have seen this type of stamp on other Romanian made items, such as Romanian gas masks from the WWII era. other similar markings were CRR "Comisia Romana de Receptie" stamped on under the liner of Dutch helmets. "Admis" stamp on leather equipment such as bayonet frogs but also bread bags, etc.

Thank you Mihnea for this id of CR.

As the conversion of the Schwarzlose was conducted in Belgium, do you have any information where the steel belts come from ? Import from foreign manufacturers or Romanian domestic production ?

Thanks in advance for any help.

JFL

I would imagine that the Belgians also made the belts as the conversion was there design. But this is just an opinion, maybe they were also made in Romania.

I'm looking at your photo with the Schwarzlose 8x50r belt loader machine, and I cannot understand how can the machine extract the bullet from the Mannlicher M95 clip from that position, isn't the rim of the cartridge gong to jam into the rim of the cartridge above?

I hope I don't mind if I ask, but do you have a Schwartzlose HMG in 7,92x57, I wold like to see some photos of one.

Looking for info on another subject, i was looking through my notes from the archives , I found that in 1938 at FN Herstal there was an order to transform 5000 Schwarzlose HMG to 7,92x57, the dead line for delivery was 1 june 1940, at the time of this document none were received. Also according to another document from 8 may 1943 Romania has ordered at FN Herstal parts (bolt assemblies and distributor barrel, I don't know the correct translation) for converting 500 Schwarzlose to 7,92, there is also a mention that not all the parts were received.

Thank you very much Mihnea for these most important information concerning the conversion to 7,92 by FN.
Have you ever seen a Romanian manual for the Schwarzlose ?

Cheers,

JFL

This leaden seals found in the Romanian dugout near Odessa - it says "CR". Can be sealed with such seal boxes with live cartridges? What is your opinion?


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/48211235.jpg/