1st December 1918, how it was made the union with Romania

Agarici, I don't know what you're taking about. Can you be more clear?

I edited my post on: This post has been edited by Dénes on December 21, 2011 09:20 pm
IonIonescu posted his post on: December 21, 2011 09:33 pm
I don't know what IonIOnescu saw or believed to see underlined, but there was nothing like he mentioned posted on the forum.

Other than jumping on this peculiar incident, do you have anything meaningful to say related to the topic?

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 21, 2011 07:41 pm

We are going nowhere like this, gentlemen. Documents, gentlemen, documents

Other than the fact that you call people names and in the same time urge them to do the opposite no, I have nothing more to say right now. Case closed in this concern, on my side.

On topic, I think that it is already obvious that 1 December was the equivalent of a referendum, organized ahead of its time in regard to what could be called by then "democratic mechanisms". The capital fact that it was organized in a period when the census vote was still the rule speaks for itself.

I think there's no point in repeating over and over tha same arguments for those who do not like that, hence they do not want to accept the reality.

@Denes, I'm talking about this post of yours: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=84047 ”Posted: December 21, 2011 04:11 pm” and you edited it nine minutes later: ”This post has been edited by Dénes on December 21, 2011 04:20 pm” I saw very well what you have written, laughed a lot, and I posted my reply on ”Posted: December 21, 2011 04:33 pm”, the underlining is mine but the words are yours, your original post was: ”Agarici, before you'd jump in this topic like a bull”/ ”4, last and foremost, do not label people.”
Am I right or not?
I posted my ”of topic” because it was so funny, any other hidden intent of my part is purely speculation

This post has been edited by ionionescu on December 21, 2011 08:05 pm

Well said.

Quote from the memorandum submitted by the Rumanian delegation on the territorial claims, Paris 8.02.1919 (translated from Hungarian):
"(...)From peak Stroi (1655 m) to the line of Rivers Tisza and Viso until the village of Trebusa, until the effluence of Szamos into Tisza down 4 km (Vásárosnamény stays in Rumania), the line goes down south-southwest to a point 6 km East of Debrecen, from there to the Körös, down 3 km at the meeting point of the three Körös rivers, then north of Szeged, then west of Orosháza and Békéssámson up to Algyő back to the Tisza. From the lower Tisza to the effluence into the Danube."
"The total area of Transylvania and the regions adjacent to Hungary: 85,000 sq. km, Banat: 28,000 sq. km."
"The Rumanian population counted by Hungarian census is 2,5 million (54%), while the Hungarian 1,1 million (23,6%) [rounded figures]
In reality, the Rumanians should be at least 2,9 million (62,5%) and the Hungarians (without the szeklers) 700,000 (15%)."
"Up until the peace treaty is signed, Transylvania will enjoy autonomy".

Gen. Dénes

Map of territorial claims against Hungary:


[From: Trianon. Nemzet és emlékezet. Osiris, 2008]

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 21, 2011 09:07 pm

This is how a proper referendum is done



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Ya, that the real democracv. Vote Basescu !!! Vote NSPDL





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Denes, can we stay in the discussion about 1st of December 1918? The Alba Iulia Great National Gathering was a romanian transylvanian one, what was at Paris was another thing, there were also romanians from Romania, not only romanians from Transylvania.

21 Inf,
Actually NO, it has been amply demonstrated that this had absolutely nothing to do with a "referendum". And most of the evidence of the contrary has been provided by you.

It is evident that you think that such a "grand" event needs a "grand" label. It is also evident that you think that "referendum" is such a "grand" word as a symbol of "democracy". "Referendums" have nothing to do with democracy, they were used by all kinds of forms of government, from the cruelest dictatorships to what may appear to be democracies.

You can paint a Dacia Solenza red and decorate it with a prancing horse, and you may even manage to convince a few that you have a Ferrari, but the majority of the people will see it for what it is. Calling it a "referendum" is the same thing.

What happened on 1 December was a "proclamation". You may think that this word is not "powerful" enough. But the concept of "proclamation" goes back to the Roman Empire and is powerful enough.

Radu

Good one. I appreciate your pun.

However, a proper plebiscite ballot about the disputed territory should have looked like this:


[Source: Wikipedia. Referendum on Sopron, 1921]

If a similar ballot with Rumania on it existed, I'd also place it here.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 22, 2011 10:22 am

Wrong. It has already been demonstrated.

Again wrong. Check previous posts.

Very much right. At least, we agree on a principle.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 22, 2011 10:37 am

All here leads to nothing. I'm out.

I agree with you, 21inf. This all leads to nothing as long as people are not ready to accept that not all historical events happened the way it was told repeatedly by only one side's sources they frequent. That's why one must consult the sources of all involved parties and foremost to look at the issue with an open mind, not dogmatically, and ready to accept facts over myths.

As I said earlier, this forum and thread is not about changing history, which luckily cannot be undone, but about discussing and clarifying the details surrounding a particular event.

As long as heart prevails over mind, sentiments over facts, there is no reason to continue the dialogue of the deaf. Too bad, because almost 100 years (!) after the event, we should be able to discuss it openly. The fact that we cannot means there is something that is not yet closed and settled.

I am out of this thread, too, which for me has run its course.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 22, 2011 12:59 pm

Wrong. It has already been demonstrated.

Again wrong. Check previous posts.

Very much right. At least, we agree on a principle.

Gen. Dénes

???

All you did in this topic was to declare that this or that are right or wrong, without motivating, and to avoid adressing the issues. I very much doubt that people are interested in your (well known) agenda. NOTHING was proven by you here, only perhaps your true colors and hypocrisy (see your edited post, "that peculiar incident" as you called it).

The 1 December referendum WAS organized in a period when the census voting was the rule, do not persist in your ignorance. Even a Wikipedia search can edify you about that. I don't need your posts to "learn" about that, nor to declare it right or wrong because you feel so.

This post has been edited by Agarici on December 23, 2011 12:13 am