First Bf-109 in Romania

A simple note: if the 109's were delivered in kits, by train, then there would have been no need for German pilots to ferry them to Romania, as suggested. So the snow stopped the railway traffic in Germany until May?

... Reminding me of the end of my first quote under this topic: "... in this kind of deals the buying part has to pay from the beginning (at least a big part of lump sum), while the selling part can delay the delivery (exactly what happened). "
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If think that by May the German leadership was confident that they have more than enough fighter planes to deal with the Western Allies.

This post has been edited by Florin on September 17, 2013 01:17 am

Agarici, the answer is in your question. The planes were supposed to be flown in. Due to the shortage of pilots the planes were dismantled and sent by train.

Florin, in May Germany was preparing for a long war with France, possibly lasting a few years. France alone was regarded as a phenomenally strong foe. Apart from that, France was also supported by the British. Everyone was expecting a repeat of the massive Franco-German battles of World War 1. No one, not a single person in the whole world could predict that France would collapse so rapidly and conclusively. No one expected Dunkirk. Even today all of that seems beyond comprehension. France fell in June and soon after that Battle of Britain began. And after that, there followed Luftwaffe operations in Africa and Operation Marita. The Bf 109 featured very heavily in all of these operations, few could be spared for some neutral country like Romania. Romania only received the rest of the planes as it agreed to go in with Germany into Russia. The rest of the Bf 109 arrived just as Romania was preparing for Barbarossa. In other words, Germany supplied Romania with these Bf 109s only when it served Germany's purposes.

Radu

I tend to agree with Radub, with one observation: until September 1940, with Romania firmly enlisted in the Axis camp, the Romanians had a powerful leverage tool and Germany needed to balance its need of weapons (in our case, fighter airplanes) with its need of oil, which influx could have been stopped, at least in theory, at any point in time by the Romanian government. Proof in this regard are the various editions of “Wafen-Oil” (fuel for arms) pact concluded between the Romanian and German authorities.

While talking of Berlin's strategies and the usage of warplanes by Hitler as bargaining chip, it's worth noting that Hungary did not receive a single Bf 109E, despite asking for it repeatedly. The deal for the He 112 to be purchased in quantities, then being built under licence also fell through. These details alone speak volumes of the importance Rumania represented for Germany.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 17, 2013 07:04 pm

I think you had considered too obvious and thus in no need to mention that your quote refers to the years 1940 and 1941.
Eventually Hungary received her own Me-109's (and this of course is known by the people writing here).

Technically, Romania was "neutral" until it joined the Tripartite Pact in Late-November 1940.
Radu

At 20 November 1940, Hungarian Prime Minister Teleki and Foreign Minister Csaky signed a protocol in Vienna, joining the Tripartite Pact.
So Romania and Hungary did it in about the same time.

I think that the difference resulting in more German equipment for Romania, at that moment in war, was the length of the Romanian borders facing Soviet Union, and the relative closeness of the Romanian oil refineries to Prut River, the new position of the Red Army.
After receiving the eastern part of the former Czechoslovakia and after the collapse of Poland, Hungary had common border with Soviet Union, less than a half of that of Romania.

This post has been edited by Florin on September 18, 2013 01:52 am

In the context of "Messerschmitts for certain countries", the date when a "certain countries" signed the Tripartite Pact is absolultely irrelevant. The only relevance is that after signing, the planes that were "delayed" became "available".
Each country signed individual contracts for the delivery of planes, at different times and with different provisos. The "link" betweem Romania and Hungary in the context of Messershmitts would be relevant only if Hungary and Romania signed identical contracts for exactly the same amount of planes of exactly the same type at exactly the same time in precisely the same political and historical context.
Of course Hitler manipulated countries and resources to further his own interests. That makes Hitler the "Hitler" that people think of when you say "Hitler".
Radu

That's the point of my earlier message. Rumania was allowed to sign such a contract (even Yugoslavia signed it), while Hungary wasn't.

Gen. Dénes

That's the point of my earlier message. Rumania was allowed to sign such a contract (even Yugoslavia signed it), while Hungary wasn't.

Gen. Dénes

In what year and month they requested for the first time Me-109's ?

PS: I thought that the next message was actually the editing of this one. Can you delete it please ?

This post has been edited by Florin on September 19, 2013 12:55 pm

That's the point of my earlier message. Rumania was allowed to sign such a contract (even Yugoslavia signed it), while Hungary wasn't.

Gen. Dénes

When was the first time when Hungary requested Me-109's ? (year and month, if possible).
Regarding "even Yugoslavia" : Yugoslavia signed agreements for being an ally of the Reich in March 1941. I am assuming that was the moment when "even Yugoslavia" was promised some Me-109's.

PS: Romania joined the Tripartite Pact 3 days after Hungary. I would joke by saying that Romania got panicked of being left behind, but the matter is too serious to joke about it.

This post has been edited by Florin on September 19, 2013 12:30 am

Florin, why don't you document yourself properly before asking questions?

If Yugoslavia signed the Tripartite Pact on 25 March 1941 and was already attacked by Germany already on 6 April 1941, how do you think in the 11 days between the two event Belgrade was "promised" Bf 109Es, the contract signed, the payment done and the delivery completed?

Gen. Dénes

P.S. I decided not to react to your provocation in another thread regarding John Hunyadi (according to you "Iancu of Huneadoara", a nonsense, only because the English version sounded too Hungarian), but this one I could not overview.

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 19, 2013 06:00 am

I can't see the relevance of bringing Hungarian Messerschmitts into this. Hungary and Romania did not share the same esteem, expectations, wealth, politics, logistics, tactics, motivations in the eyes of Germany.
In as far as I can see, "Hungarian Messerschmitts" were brought in just to prove that "Hitler's Germany was the "puppetmaster of Europe". I think that if that point had to be made, it has been made.
Radu

Not really. The reason why I wanted to mention this detail was to demonstrate, once again, that - in contrast to what is believed about wartime Hungary - Hungary was not Hitler's favourite, "the Nazis' ardent follower". In contrast, it was a reciprocal animosity between Berlin and Budapest, Hitler and Horthy. Therefore, Hungary was rather low on the list of Hitler's important allies, while Rumania was rather high. This is not a well known and accepted fact. Hence my point.

Gen. Dénes