Teodor Moscu on 22.06.41, Potez or P.37 he escorted?

Getting back to the topic, are you sure about attributing the two P.37s to the 67 IAP? The Romanian reports always mention them as shot down by AAA.



In the case of the loss of two P.37 Soviet anti-aircraft artillery reported only one kill. It is not certain that this A/A resulted in the loss of combat. It is possible that both "Łoś" shot down I-16 from the 67 IAP, with high probability the Russians with 67 IAP shot down at laest one of them.

Regards,
mw

Small correction

One squadron (escadrlia) can not have both 40 I-153 and 17 I-15bis and I-153 combat aircraft. Or Denes give one size or the other? A woman can not be both pregnant and remain a virgin, in his book Denes think so maybe it could be? Very interesting point of view.

Mirek,
Unlike other air forces, pilots of ARR did not have a "personal mount". A pilot could fly one plane today and another tomorrow. Many pilots had their photos taken next to the nearest plane - if they write on the back of the photo "me and my plane", that is all we have. Official records can be misleading from time to time, some pilots exaggerate, some intelligence reports are erroneous, sometimes the "furier" who recorded them wrote them in a hurry because he was tired or was in a rush to go meet his girlfriend. Same applies on both sides, Romanian records may differ from Russian records. But, correct, wrong, good, bad, that is all we have.

As for "grave errors"... who died?

Radu

To Victor "Getting back to the topic, are you sure about attributing the two P.37s to the 67 IAP? The Romanian reports always mention them as shot down by AAA"


In the case of aircraft shot down by anti-aircraft artillery is always a large area of uncertainty, who was the actual culprit.


It is a very similar situation in the case of JG 77 June 22, 1941. According to the Germans, they had lost one Me 109 E shot down by Flak or A/A over Bielce (Balti) during a raid around noon.

According to the Russians Me 109 was shot down by three pilots MiG-3s from the 55 IAP. By the way, according to the Germans, they had to fight over Bielce versus 6 "Ratas (I-16)" and they were indeed MiG-3 of 1. and 2./55. IAP.

In fact was lost Hubert Ebeling (Stab II/JG 77, Me 109 E-7 W.No. 1092) POW. Shot down by three pilots from 1./55. IAP (Surov KIA, Siemienov and Szczujan it was a group victory no any Flak fire).

It was a fighter bomber raid of JG 77 on the base of 55 IAP done in two separate waves. Russian idenfaied it as a bombers and fighter but in fact there were only Me 109 E of JG 77 some of them with SD-2s.

From the first wave was shot down Ebeling by MiG-3s, the next wave of Me 109 shot down MiG-3 of Surov.

The Russians lost then two MiG-3, including one shot down by Me 109 (ml lt. A. Surow 1./55 IAP). Most probably he was shot down by Oblt. Walter Höckner of 6./JG 77, who reported 1 victory over "ZKB-19" at 12:55 Berlin time.

In the book "FBTO vol 1"made by Denes is shown conflicting data on page 19 and 22 about this episode.

Moreover, during this fight Germany downed "ZKP-19/MiG-3" and not any DB-3 by any Bochmann (who is it? I do not know?). This is an pure example of fantasy done by authors or pure historical mumbo-jambo.

JG 77 on 22.06.41 did claim any Soviet bomber only fighters like "I-16" or "ZKB-19"


Regards,
mirekw

PS
I can not say that in "FBTO vol 1" are given solid and credible information. No way.

If MiG-3's were present in Bessarabia / eastern Moldova as of June 22, 1941, this means Stavka was paying a lot of attention to Bessarabia / Romania before the start of the war.
At that moment MiG-3 was a very scarce aircraft: only 100 were built before the start of the war. It remained scarce even after the start of the war, because it had to share the available engines with Ilyushin Il-2, a favorite.
If MiG-3's took part to action in Moldova on June 22, that would make it a "first", as it happened before the MiG-3's encounters that occurred over Poland later in those days.

This post has been edited by Florin on July 24, 2014 04:52 pm

"If MiG-3's were present in Bessarabia / eastern Moldova as of June 22, 1941, this means Stavka was paying a lot of attention to Bessarabia / Romania before the start of the war.
At that moment MiG-3 was a very scarce aircraft: only 100 were built before the start of the war. It remained scarce even after the start of the war, because it had to share the available engines with Ilyushin Il-2, a favorite.
If MiG-3's took part to action in Moldova on June 22, that would make it a "first", as it happened before the MiG-3's encounters that occurred over Poland later in those days".


Not exactly, only MiG-1 was produeced in 1940 in 100 copies. Next MiG-3 was produeced in much more examples. In May 1943 German miliatry mission was invited by Stalin to see Zawod no 1 in Moscw, where produced in full time and power MiG-3s. There were gathered about 300 MiG-3 on the near airfield. It was made a great impression on German about Soviet productive power. It was great, massive but quality in fact was very low.

There were 60 MiG-s in 55. IAP (58 MiG-3 and 2 MiG-1) the next was 149 IAP of 64. IAD with similar amount with MiG-3, the 4. IAP had also 60 MiG-3 and
whole 9. SAD in Western Font had over 200 MiG-3 and MiG-1 in four IAPs. So the amount of MiGs on Western border were several hundreds MiG-s.

One important remarks it was very problematic fighter, he had a lot of technical problems, plenty with everthing: engine, wings, weapons, each internal system was not "perfect".

Reagards,
mw

Why would Stalin invite a "German mission" to a factory in Moscow in 1943? May 1943? You mean just before the Battle of Kursk Stalin was all nice and polite to Geman delegations?
Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on July 24, 2014 08:48 pm

Why would Stalin invite a "German mission" to a factory in Moscow in 1943? May 1943? You mean just before the Battle of Kursk Stalin was all nice and polite to Geman delegations?
Radu

I am sure he made a typo and he did not notice it.
I wanted to ask him if it was 1940 or 1941, then I thought: "Forget about it!"

En error, it was May 1941. Sorry, type error.

Stalin had invaited Germman military mission to show own big power, it was not any demo show. Zavod no 1 had produeced tousends of planes. For example I-153 which was produeced betwenn 1939-1941 (begining) in 3437 examples.

Stalin did not show: T-34, KV-1, KV-2, Katiusza, TB-7, Su-2 , Ił-2 , Yer-2, Jak-1, ŁaGG-3, so Russian had much more 'nice" tools of war, then only MiG-3. Of course Russian miliatry mission was also in German in spring 1941 such co-operation.

Regards
mw

A "grave error" maybe?
Radu

No, a "solid error".

Gen. Dénes

Yes, it was "terrible error" but very fast corrected and explained.

For people who realy are interested in this subject (Soviet VVS) the fact of German inspection in Soviet plants in May 1941 is well know.

In turn, dilettantes and malicious people use this for their own selfish mistake satisfaction. Did nothing to correct the mistake (terrible error, my fault, sorry) quickly.

In this way they could demonstrate his deep knowledge of the issues. Instead of showing own greatness in this way only show own human smallness, :-)

Regards
mw

Mirek, there are people who only feel "big" by making other people feel "small".
One way to "make others feel small" is by looking for errors and then saying "I spotted your error, that makes me smarter than you".

Oh yes, I am aware of the "irony" of this, but just to make things clear, I was only serving you a spoonful of your own medication when "I spotted your error".

I think that it is evident that you have a "problem" with Denes, you made that clear many times. Trust me, repeated attacks against the same person do not "strengthen" your position, in fact they achieve they exact opposite.

Radu

In a recent post I did not write any direct attack against anyone. This is a general, philosophical statement about human nature, about people great and people very small.

Any resemblance to real people is very random.

Reagards,
mw

You did attack me directly, Mirek, by my name. Please don't act like this not happened and take responsibility for your deeds:
"Do not say Denes about your solid work on this book From Barbrssa to Odessa vol 1. On the p. 12 you have given info about planes in 96. OIAE VVS CZF as "40 I-153". This is next solid error or even worse a big *** (edited for foul language).
(...)
PS
be so kind Denes do not promote your book From Barbarossa to Odessa, I do not want to show you next solid errors included in your "solid" book. Simple it is waste of my time, there are solid errors too."

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on July 25, 2014 04:15 pm