Beating the Romanian aviation on 22.06.41?, provocative hypothesis!

Let me put a provocative hypothesis (?):

"Beating the Romanian aviation June 22, 1941"


In relation to the number of aircraft owned aviation ARR had very extensively used its force on the first day of the war (22.06.41).

Recent bombings Romanian been made ​​about hours. 14:00 Moscow time (about 12:00 Romanian time: Esc. 18 9 IAR-37s on Izmaił)

22 June aviation ARR had been beaten by the Russians, mainly by the 67 IAP. In the first half of a day Romanians had suffered serious losses (12 planes lost in combat plus a few damaged, at least: 2-3 bombers, 2 fighters).

Romanian command resigned due to large losses from conducting bombing raids on the Soviet airports in the afternoon and evening.


As a result, the effective defense of the Soviet airfields (mainly airports 67 IAP) Romanian Air Force has failed attacks throughout the day.

Romanians have done a few combat sorties (GAL about 124, only 5 bomber mission - 56 bombers sorties) in relation to the number of owned aircraft (over 200). On five bomber missions only one did sustain any losses.

Otherwise acted Germany, who had attacked the Soviet airports around the clock. For example, 17 He 111 of KG 27 (Fliegerkorps IV) attacked the airport Singuerny and the town Bielcy at 20:10 Moscow time.


Regards,
mirekw

Mirek,


This provocative hypotes is a non sense.

Romania started the war not because wanted to destroy soviet planes as a Guiness book record. Romanians only wanted to regain the lost territories in 1940.

On the first day of the war the task of Romanian Air force was to attack the soviets airdromes to inflict as much damage to airfield instalations and destroy planes on the ground.
Unknown to Romanian crews was the fact that soviet used mock-up planes on the main airfields and the real fighter planes took off from dispersed fields.
Most of the Romanian looses were bombers and you can not compare bombers with fighters ( like apple with peaches) for the right figures.
The main goal was achieved as Romanians troops could advance easy in Bessarabia it means that Soviet had no more air superiority ( and I mean not only Rata fighters buzzing in the air to scare the brave Romanian soldiers).

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on July 24, 2014 07:40 am

Only idiotic questions moving human being.

Allow me to disagree.

1. The war is to destroy the enemy and achieving their political objectives by means of brutal and deadly force. If you do not kill the enemy, or you will not cause him a large loss (make him powerless) to be put under your conditions, he will do so with you. Winning only one.

2. Next.
Bombers aircraft are a tool in the war offensive. To attack.
Fighter aircrafts are a defensive tool in the war. To defence.

Romanian had lost quit many own offesive wepons, you may check. The bomber force had done 56 bomber sorties and lost 10-13 planes total lost or heavy damagad - about 20-25 % of attaking force on 22.06. This means that in five days of such action there would be not ARR's bomber force in such extensive and ofensive air war.
Romaian comand had decided to stop losing own ofensive weapons, it costed to much for a such small force. Effects were in fact minimal.

3. Next:
Luftwaffe from Batlic States up to Rumania attacked the Soviet airports throughout the day (around the clock). Germany did not give up and just hit 2-3 and more times for the same airfiled, demends but minimu at least 2 times Soviet airfields in the mornings and in the afternoon.

4. Next.
Romanian and German offensive began only on 2 July 1941, by which time there was a war positional.
The ease with which Romania entered the grounds of Northern Bukovina and Bessarabia was not due to their overwhelming superiority, but only with huge losses sustained by Soviets in North-West, West, and South-West Front, (near Równo).

Germany in 10-12 days destroyed practically all the Soviet armies on the border - Soviet fronts there almost totaly collapsed, it was total destruction/war catastrophy.

5. Next - false airfield
At that time it was not yet prepared airfields with fake planes. The order of the creation of false airfileds was given a few days earlier, and it was not entered into force on June 22.

Then,
I can not agree with you and sustain, what I have said earlier.

Reagrds,
MirekW

So you are comparing the German Army and Air-force, including its highly EXPERIENCED, politically motivated troops and superior weaponry and tactics to the Romanian Army and Air-force witch was the exact opposite in every manner, totally IGNORING the soviet fire-power, numbers and politically induced fanaticism ... very ”smart” of you mirekw

What is a problem, to the point, 67. IAP had only old I-16s and fought quite well with this old tolls of defensive.
The war does not respect any weakness. Romanian had got good technical support from Luftwaffe in 1940, they had came to teach ARR the art of air war. Several months is quite enought to be learned of modern warfare.

Regards,
mw

BTW
ARR had also Me 109E and He 111 not so bad planes in 1941. IAR-80 was a slight better then I-16 and I-153.

Romania started as partner of a very powerful ally. She was not trying to fight alone against Soviet Union.
When an alliance is carrying out a war, for the final result what is really important is the overall performance of the alliance. The partners may fare better or worse than the average.

You have to accept that the Romanians were realistic: they did not try fighting with Soviet Union in 1940. I don't think that is important if the Soviets were more efficient with few more shot down planes against Romanians on June 22, while in the other places they lost 1600 against almost no enemy losses.

This post has been edited by Florin on July 24, 2014 06:36 pm

[QUOTE]I can not agree with you and sustain, what I have said earlier.

Reagrds,
MirekW[QUOTE]

I understood perfectly your point of view.

You picked only one day of the war ,with controversal data about soviet looses or claims ( Btw I don't trust any soviet looses/claims reported by soviet Komisars afraid of Stalin revenge) and try to establish that romanian should stoped advancing in Bessarabia because romanian aircraft looses were more than soviet aircraft looses and nobody told them. Very clever indeed.

This is an overstatement, and an overstatement also for 1941.
The real support was indirect: the efficiency of Luftwaffe fighting on her own for her own goals, that in that moment were shared goals with those of Romania.

The "several months" wonder is is happening only during wartime, the hard way - if you are big enough to survive the first several months.
During peacetime, the military is a dumb and slow learner.

This post has been edited by Florin on July 24, 2014 11:54 pm

I don't think that is important if the Soviets were more efficient with few more shot down planes against Romanians on June 22, while in the other places they lost 1600 against almost no enemy losses.

it is not so, the Soviet losses form 22.06 to 23.06.41 to 12:00 o'clock were 336 shot down plus 800 lost on the ground (destroyed, damaged and abandoned - servicable). It is very popular myth about 1200 destroyed in the first day. Many authors love to write this figure forgetting to add next half a day. which makes a big diffeence.

A lot of planes were abondend on the border airfields in the first weeks of war, later captured by Germans, some of them servicable. Thereare plenty of photos documented this, see Ebay.


Next. Luftwaffe had lost quite many planes in the first day of war: 61 in combat (>60 % of damage) plus 17 in non combat (>60% damage) plus 89 damaged in combat (50) and non combat operation (39). It means 77 planes total lost plus 89 damaged, as for a force about nearly 2000 combat planes it is not any "nothing".

Soviet had gathered on the western border about 10.000 combat planes, it was not all what Stalin had in June 1941 (about 60% of his air power)

regards,
mw

"You picked only one day of the war ,with controversal data about soviet looses or claims ( Btw I don't trust any soviet looses/claims reported by soviet Komisars afraid of Stalin revenge) and try to establish that romanian should stoped advancing in Bessarabia because romanian aircraft looses were more than soviet aircraft looses and nobody told them. Very clever indeed."

All we know all about the end of this war. We see from our moder perspective this war.

The perspective on 22.06 1941 for all had looked absolutly different, no one know how this war will ended. It makes colosal difference in perspetive of decision makers. You did know what will happend the next day, the future was then very "complicated/ unclear". And you have to command.

Each army have to report own losses, no matter how much is is political army. This is military bureaucracy in SU, Romania, Third Reich, USA.
You must submit full reports on the losses, but what else is to specify their reasons.

Number of lost 1,200 aircraft (400 or 336 in air + 800 on the ground) Russians calculated only after a few months of the war. It was created based on various residual data

regards
mw

A "war" is a "sequence of battles". Lose a battle, win a battle, all that matters is that at the end you reach, as you call it, your "political objectives". Think of a football match - all that matters is the score at the end. Saying "we lost" after the first goal is... to use your words... idiotic.

Romania's "political objective" when it entered the war was to liberate Bessarabia. So... they "achieved" that, they succeeded in liberating Bessarabia. That they lost Bessarabia a few years later, that is a completely different "discussion". (This forum has a long thread about the poor decisions and disastruous events that followed the liberation of Bessarabia).

Radu

"During peacetime, the military is a dumb and slow learner."


In 1940 Romaina was in a near state of war with Hungary (in the last "second" it had been stopped, war was in full progress in both sides, next lost a lot of territory to SU, Hungary, Bulgaria. There was not any peace time. In such not "polite" political an military condition no nation, or military is a dumb and slow learner, it cost too much.

Romanian offciers were not supid too, but as in each army (no matter of nation) there were not very smart.

" A "war" is a "sequence of battles". Lose a battle, win a battle, all that matters is that at the end you reach, as you call it, your "political objectives". Think of a football match - all that matters is the score at the end. Saying "we lost" after the first goal is... to use your words... idiotic. "

Very good comparnision and I like it. In fact ARR had lost the battle in the first day, if she susain such "tempo of play/ loosing goals", she might lost whole "match" in five days. So let's make a pasue and wait aboput noon, our goals are different to win Bukowina, Bessarabia. We could not lost so early in vain our all, but very small striking/attacking air force, we can use it later with better results.

I agree with this comparnisono to "match" it is good.

mw

Wich battle are you talking ? ARR had missions to bomb targets and not to hide from enemy to avoid looses.
In your opinion win/lost a battle is reduced to who loose/save more aircraft.
With this theory ARR would not flying the first day for sure win the battle because soviet could loose some planes due to AA or troops.

Actually no, you missed the point. You are saying that the "match" was lost after the first goal was scored and that the team simply went home and said "we lost". But that is not what happened. Aeronautica Regala Romana went on to "win" the match in the end.

Hey, why don't you look at how your "Polish team" performed in the "match" with the same "VVS"? Not only they lost, but the team ended either with broken legs or in exile.

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on July 25, 2014 10:28 am