Romanian Army & Holocaust Claims

[aerialls]

it will be very interesting to see... if someone should translate that eyewiness acount in english... who was in charge. and with all those photo reporters stuff... it seams after me... that those "soldiers" were used as "tools".

And see how the things were really going on outhere... russian cooperation in the "thing" and stuff. I'm too lazy to do it...

[Dénes]

Excerpt from 'Odessa, 1941-1944. A Case Study of Soviet Territory under Foreign Rule', by Alexander Dallin, The Center For Romanian Studies, Iasi, 1998, p.74:
[quote]A factual Abwehr [German intelligence] report: "on the morning of the 23rd [October, 1941], the day after the explosion [i.e., when the Rumanian Army HQ was blown up], about 19,000 Jews were shot on a square in the port, surrounded by a wooden fence. Their corpses were sprinkled with gasoline and burned".
Thousands more were allegedly taken to Dal'nik and there massacred in anti-tank trenches."[/quote]
[Notes in brackets mine, D.B.]

Further on, it's mentioned that in Odessa the terror declined after the first months of occupation.

There is an entire chapter devoted to the topic, so anyone interested in further details should check it out. The book should be available in Rumanian libraries.

[aerialls]

Denes.. don't know about that book...sorry for it... but should we talked now about those 500.000 hungarian jews... or... x God knows bulgarian jews or... on the teritory of today Romania the figure is x000. Many of those deported in the east returned to the country afterwards. Ana Pauker was jewish. Many of them departed to Israel or to Us.

Should we talked about other "hot" topics that makes us hurt?

Frankly... I believe that this thread should be deleted... but it is all in the hands of the moderators.
Wateva... i'm immune to all of it.

[dragos]

It would be better to wait for the reports of the commission authorized to examine the Romanian archives in this problem, and refrain from making flaming statements.

[quote]Relu pointed out about strange pics of the "Death trains"... I actually have those pics in a book of Stoenescu, but unfortunately I cannot post them on the forum, because I do not have right now a directory.[/quote]

You can email some scans to me and I will try to post them.

[quote]No mass killings occured in Transnistria! If you want, I can post extracts from the report of the International Red Cross.[/quote]

Yes, please. Did the International Red Cross make thorough investigation, like searching for mass-graves ?

[ioni]

I do not claim to be a specialist in the field, but I read several books and articles on this matter, including Matatias Carp's 1945 "Transnistria" books, 1940-41 Iasi Centre Books about Transnistria, and several Jewish survivors books.

Until any surviving archives are open and studied, all these books must be taken with a pinch of salt, because they were influenced by the political factors in case of the Romanian books and by the subjective and revengefull feelings in case of the Jewish books.

The origins of the indigenous population in the north of Black Sea are not very clear. This is mainly due, to the Ukraine complete disinterest in archeological discoveries in this area (they must be knowing something!).

It seems that large areas were populated with dacian-tracian populations, the eastern tribes that reached beyond the Dnieper's Delta. There is some archeological and historical proof about a Kingdom of Bolohovens (Tara Bolohovenilor -> Volohi -> Valahi) in the middle of today's Ukraine. They constantly fought the russians, even allying with the tartars. They were completely wipped out by the rusians in the 15-16 th centuries.
When the russians arrived in the territory between Dniester and Bug, there was already a strong moldavian (romanian) presence. The moldavians were the stable population, cultivating the land while the tartars where the migratory one, leaving in a kind of symbiosys. Tartars obtained food and offered protection. On most maps, the south (The Bugeac) appears as deserted and belonging to the Tartars from Crimeea, very false indeed.
This territory was largely owned by Moldavian boyars and most of the dwellings were inhabited by Romanians, from Movilau (town created on the lands of Ieremia Movila, Moldavian King - later Moghilev) in North West to Vozia (today Oceacov) in South East, and from Bratlav (town created by the Poles but with a majority of moldavian traders and peasants) in North East to Stanesti (the village Odessa was built on) in South West, with the Romanian town of Balta in the centre (still exists with the same name).

The russians took these lands, including Bessarabia, after victories against the turks. However, the agreement the Moldavians had with the turks was that in exchange of taxes Moldavians pay, the turks will defend and protect the territory and they HAD NO RIGHT TO OWN THE LAND OR TO GIVE IT AWAY. It is understandable the surprise of the austrians and russians in 1775 (and before) when the turks told them, that, despite their victory, they cannot give them anything because they DO NOT OWN ANY LANDS IN MOLDAVIA AND BESSARABIA.
This is the mistake made by all western historians!!! It seems they all suffer some kind of collective halucination, when they speak about the "normal" transfer of lands from deafeated turks to their victors.
However, in the end the turks signed the treaties that had no juridical value.
Since then at least three massive waves of colonists were sent to these lands!!!!

Jews started to arrive in in Bessarabia and Bucovina in large numbers after the progroms in Russia around the 17th century. They formed tightly knit and exclusivist communities, taking over financial life of many towns and villages mainly because, as foreigners, they could not owe land (the only physical commodity in Romania at that time).
However, the Romanian population, largely uneducated and, sometimes, not very tolerant disagreed (to put it mildly) with these exclusivistic communities. In my opinion, all these feelings accumulated over the years and they were used later by the fascists movements like the Iron Guard (which started as a peasant and religious movement). Up to then, the feelings were kept wrapped under the blanket by the monarchy (society), with no major disturbances talking place.

There are several aspects from WW2 that I could extract from what I read:
- russians had a fifth column in Bessarabia, and lots of this members were jews, who attacked retreating troops causing some damage.
- when the russians entered Bessarabia, about 10% of the jewish population retreated in Romania (exactly the reacher members)
- the fifth column helped the russians to identify and deport important members of the Romanian population
- but, there are cases of Jewish soldiers in the Romanian army that protected their colleagues.
- when the Romanians came back, at the orders of Antonescu, they treated all Jewish population the same. They did not try that much to find these 5th column members (most of whom retreated with the russians) but punished all Jewish population all together.
- in the first period, combatant troops did take place in small scale masacres, rapes, etc. These were NOT COORDINATed actions, taken by small groups and individuals from the army. Most went unpunished.
- later most jewish population was marched to Transnistria, lots dying on the road and later in the camps
- most of the later actions are those of the Terittorial Army (Jandarmii). The camps were run by TA Officers, some of them very sadistic.
- lots of people took advantage of the Jews in the camps, including local Ukrainian peasants, members of the German settlements, SS units, etc. There are several Romanian reports of German colonists or soldiers entering the Romanian run camps and talking away Jews to kill.
- I think, as in case of Germany, one needs to make a clear distinction between combatant troops and TA troops (like the difference made between The Wehrmacht and SS).
- there are several cases when retreating combatant Romanian troops were given, by the Germans, groups of Jews to kill, and they release them to the russians.

And, at the end, I am attaching the map from Carp's book showing the deportation routes and the camps.

[dragos]

The following photographs have been provided by Geto-Dacul.

I post them as links because they contain atrocities.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/images/forum/Trenu...ile-mortii1.jpg

http://www.worldwar2.ro/images/forum/Trenu...ile-mortii2.jpg

http://www.worldwar2.ro/images/forum/Iasi-1941.jpg

[Victor]

[quote] At the time of Miron Costin, those lands were controlled by the Romanian principality of Moldavia... [/quote]

Do you have any actual proof to back this up? As far as I know it was under the control of the Kingdom of Poland (the northern part) and of the Ottoman Empire (the southern part).

[quote] Facts are aproximately like this : During the period that Transnistria was under Romanian authority (with Gh. Alexianu as governor), there were no mass killings or massacres. [/quote]

There were no mass murders, but many of those deported died there. How can this be? Care to give a logical explanation?
Btw, even Alexianu admitted during the trial that there executions at Golta, but he said that he knew the Germans were responsible for them.

[quote] So you cannot hide hundreds and thousands of cadavers... But hundreds of thousands??? Or are they invisible? Oh, no! I found a better one! Romanian authorities built giant dismantable crematoriums, and the ashes were thrown in the Black Sea! [/quote]

I personally find this kind of humor of bad taste.
As a matter of fact, the cadavers were burned. Here is a testimony of a survivor, Haim Cogan:
At the beginning of December 1941, we were taken from Vazhdovka and sent to Zakhariovka [east of Ribnitza], where we were kept in a stable in a field near the village. There we were several thousand Jews from Chisinau. We stayed there for 8 days. In open field without food. Every day many died and were thrown on the field, as it was very cold. On 8 December, in the evening, we were sent towards Bogdanova. The Ukrainian guards, working for the prefecture, shot everyone who remained behind the column.

I was part of a team, which during the first days had the task to gather the dead, who had been shot on the way. After a few days we worked on a large grave, where there were several thousand bodies. Then we carried the bodies from a grave with about 400-500 bodies. It was very cold and it was impossible to dig them out. We had to cut them to pieces and transport them like this to the pits where the bodies were being burned. It took about two months to turn our brothers into ashes.

[quote] Anyway... I urge Dragos to be more on the point next time in this question! Because if I would have said about Jews what Chandy or his friends said or insinuated about Romanians till know, I would have been permanently banned! [/quote]

I have not seen anything yet about Romanians in general, but more of a discussion with you personally.

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor wrote :

[quote]Do you have any actual proof to back this up? As far as I know it was under the control of the Kingdom of Poland (the northern part) and of the Ottoman Empire (the southern part).[/quote]

Miron Costin was a chronicler. During the reign of Duca Voda (1673-1678), those regions were under Moldavian control.



[quote]Btw, even Alexianu admitted during the trial that there executions at Golta, but he said that he knew the Germans were responsible for them.[/quote]

Also, when did the Golta executions occured? If the Germans were responsible for them, it's another story. Who was executed at Golta, how much and why? I suppose it happened when the front was still in Transnistria. Do not forget that during a period, Transnistria was under Romanian military administration (General Potopeanu).

[quote]I personally find this kind of humor of bad taste.
As a matter of fact, the cadavers were burned. Here is a testimony of a survivor, Haim Cogan:
At the beginning of December 1941, we were taken from Vazhdovka and sent to Zakhariovka [east of Ribnitza], where we were kept in a stable in a field near the village. There we were several thousand Jews from Chisinau. We stayed there for 8 days. In open field without food. Every day many died and were thrown on the field, as it was very cold. On 8 December, in the evening, we were sent towards Bogdanova. The Ukrainian guards, working for the prefecture, shot everyone who remained behind the column.

I was part of a team, which during the first days had the task to gather the dead, who had been shot on the way. After a few days we worked on a large grave, where there were several thousand bodies. Then we carried the bodies from a grave with about 400-500 bodies. It was very cold and it was impossible to dig them out. We had to cut them to pieces and transport them like this to the pits where the bodies were being burned. It took about two months to turn our brothers into ashes.
[/quote]

Care to give us a source, for this? If 400-500 bodies were burned, that does not mean that they were all burned! So there were burning pits (?) in Bogdanova?

[Chandernagore]

[quote]
Hey, Chandy! I'm wayting to see the day when Israel (or any other country) will errect a monument in the memory of all those hundreds of thousands of Romanians who perished during WW2.[/quote]

Ask the Russians.

[quote]As I pointed out in other posts, many local Jews were behind horrible murders against the Romanian population in the territories taken by USSR (Bessarabia and N. Bucovina).[/quote]

"Many". Thanks for the precision. And only the Jews of course.

By the way I remind you have still been unable to answer the question that I asked : "why ?" Doesn't seem to bother you as long as you have your culprit.

[quote]Only between July 1940 and June 1941, some 200.000 Romanians were deported and murdered by Soviet authorities, who brought Jews [/quote]

Again... "imported" Jews ? How many hundreds of billions of them live on earth ? The Soviet Union seem to have had a bottomless reserve especially brewd, trained and dedicated to overun the neigbouring region in order to create the Great Jewish Protectorate of Soviet Bessarabia.. Of course, from your tribal nationalistic point of vue, I understand that you badly need the Jews as scapegoats. And that's the whole point of antisemitism isn't it, scapegoats for everything that turned wrong ?

[quote]But Israel equipped with the A bomb needs money to survive! [/quote]

The 3 or 4 major wars in Israel history were conventional. Their daily security depends on conventional forces. Israel would be hard pressed to stay afloat without financial help from abroad. But US support generally is considered sufficient and they don't need much else.[/quote]

[Geto-Dacul]

Chandernagore wrote :

[quote]Ask the Russians.[/quote]

Ask the Russians, yes! Ask all the co-belligerants of that war! They all threw bombs on Romanian soil!

[quote]"Many". Thanks for the precision. And only the Jews of course.

By the way I remind you have still been unable to answer the question that I asked : "why ?" Doesn't seem to bother you as long as you have your culprit.
[/quote]

As I said before, and as other posters pointed out : Appart from the more richer Jews of Bessarabia (~10%), the rest of them were part of the Soviet intelligentsia or at least sympathizers. Otherwise their love for the Soviets cannot be explained. Note that Bessarabian Jews were first brought by tsarist authorities back in the 19th century, to dilute the ethnic composition of the territory, which was in favour of the Romanians (88% in 1818).

And BTW, not only Jews behaved badly during the retreat, but also parts of the Bulgarian minority in Southern Bessarabia, who "allied" themselves with the Jews. But there where more isolated cases.


[quote]Again... "imported" Jews ? How many hundreds of billions of them live on earth ? The Soviet Union seem to have had a bottomless reserve especially brewd, trained and dedicated to overun the neigbouring region in order to create the Great Jewish Protectorate of Soviet Bessarabia .. Of course, from your tribal nationalistic point of vue, I understand that you badly need the Jews as scapegoats. And that's the whole point of antisemitism isn't it, scapegoats for everything that turned wrong ?[/quote]

The Jews of Bessarabia are not the scapegoats... But most of them were not innocent too! What annoys me very much is that someone says that "some Germans murdered..." you'll take it as normal and not comment it. Instead, if someone says that "some Jews were responsible of murders", you'll jump at the throat and accuse of antisemitism. Like the Jews are all puritans.

[quote]But US support generally is considered sufficient and they don't need much else.[/quote]

Oh... And please tell me why they want compensations?

G.

[Geto-Dacul]

Dénes wrote :

[quote]quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A factual Abwehr [German intelligence] report: "on the morning of the 23rd [October, 1941], the day after the explosion [i.e., when the Rumanian Army HQ was blown up], about 19,000 Jews were shot on a square in the port, surrounded by a wooden fence. Their corpses were sprinkled with gasoline and burned".
Thousands more were allegedly taken to Dal'nik and there massacred in anti-tank trenches."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[Notes in brackets mine, D.B.]

Further on, it's mentioned that in Odessa the terror declined after the first months of occupation.

There is an entire chapter devoted to the topic, so anyone interested in further details should check it out. The book should be available in Rumanian libraries.[/quote]

Huh, Dénes! Let's use our logic! Ever imagined how looked the "square in the port" of Odessa on October 23, 1941 after the capture of the city??? It was a total mess! Destroyed trucks, broken tractors, smashed field guns and a lot of abandonned material that was repaired later and used by the Romanian Army. You couldn't even execute 100 people in that mess... I'll post some scans. So I strongly doubt that Abwehr report as being authentic!

Regards,

Getu'

[Chandernagore]

[quote] Ask the RussiansAsk the Russians, yes! Ask all the co-belligerants of that war! They all threw bombs on Romanian soil!.[/quote]

It's intriguing how lenient you are with your dear Russian commie friends (who stole Bessarabia from you, let's not forget) while you seem surprised that the evil Western world did hold you accountable for allying with and selling oil to the nazis in a world war. Maybe the US should apologize for taking out Ploesti ? I heard there were even some Canadian pilots on those flights. The horror...

[Chandernagore]

[quote]Note that Bessarabian Jews were first brought by tsarist authorities back in the 19th century, to dilute the ethnic composition of the territory, which was in favour of the Romanians (88% in 1818). [/quote]

Ah. I wonder why they did not bring in Tsarist Russians.

[Victor]

[quote] Miron Costin was a chronicler. During the reign of Duca Voda (1673-1678), those regions were under Moldavian control [/quote]

I know who Miron Costin was. I was interested in something of the kind of IO, X Mare Voevod si Domn peste... I am curious how the Moldavian princes named the territory between the Bug and the Dniester.

[quote] Care to give us a source, for this? If 400-500 bodies were burned, that does not mean that they were all burned! So there were burning pits (?) in Bogdanova? [/quote]

The testimony was published in the book Transnistria by Jean Ancel.

[quote] when did the Golta executions occured? If the Germans were responsible for them, it's another story. Who was executed at Golta, how much and why? I suppose it happened when the front was still in Transnistria. Do not forget that during a period, Transnistria was under Romanian military administration (General Potopeanu). [/quote]

I gave you that example, not to imply that Alexianu was involved himself in the killings, but I thought you would believe what he said and thus admit that massacres did take place.

I do not know the exact date, but it was sometime in late 1941, when the deportations started. Those killed there (the number of 70,000 mentioned by the prosecutors during the trial is questionable, due to the nature of the trial) were being deported from Bessarabia. Apparently there were German troops there and they were executed after they passed into Trans-Dnestra. At least this is what Col. M. Isopescu, the prefect, reported. It is not known exactly if Romanian gendarmes (Isopescu's men) took part in the massacres or if they tried to prevent it. Isopescu was later also on trial for war crimes, IIRC.

As a result, Alexianu declared that he ordered that the columns with those deported be stopped from crossing the Dniester, until the Germans could be contacted.

[quote] I'm wayting to see the day when Israel (or any other country) will errect a monument in the memory of all those hundreds of thousands of Romanians who perished during WW2. [/quote]

The European Christian-Democrats will soon propose a bill in the European Parliament, that will condemn Communism as as criminal as National-Socialism.

[Victor]

Note:
The "Territorial Army" in ioni's post is none other than the Gendarmerie. It had no connection with the territorial corps.