The place of ARR among the top WWII air forces, Should we consider it as the 7th ?

How are you ?

While today the Romanian Air Force does not really matter in a wargame estimate (I do not want to hurt feelings, it is just a sad truth), during WWII it was not quite the same situation.
Considering the whole involvement of the Romanian Royal Aeronautics from 1941 to 1945, where it stands in a top ?
After
The United States
The National-Socialist Germany
Soviet Union
The British Empire
The Empire of Japan
The Kingdom of Italy . . .

. . . is it reasonable to consider it as number 7 ?

The French Republic would easily take number 7 if we consider only the number of airplanes and pilots. But I am thinking that they were actually in war only for 5 weeks, and the French air forces where almost useless during those 5 weeks. Oh, yes, the French were warriors again from September 1944 - and their whole army was stopped at the German border by the 27th Army, until the end of April 1945. But I do not know if they had a notable aviation military branch in 1944 - 1945.
I did not forget that there were French pilots with the Royal Air Force and with the Военно-воздушные силы (the Soviet Air Forces), but I would not count them under the actions of the Armée de l'Air (the French Air Force).

So, should France or Romania be on number 7 seat, all things considered ?
If the time of combat and the real impact are not factors, but only the numbers of men and equipment, then Poland could possibly get a number 8 (after France).
Personally I would consider Romania in front of France, not only because the ARR was more days into the conflict, but also the Romanian pilots flew more missions, shot down more enemy planes and performed more bombing actions than the French.

What is your opinion ?
If you think that there were other air forces out there that should be considered, please feel free to present your views.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 27, 2014 03:35 am

Actually, France didn´t fight 5 weeks, but 9-10 monts, the first part of war counts also.
And the French air force fought battles after 1940 on both sides. For Vichy France, it fought in Dakar, Lebanon, Syria and during Operation Torch. They also saw an action after the "reunion" of French forces after Torch until the end of war. They got a solid number of aircraft from US, but I don´t know, how many participated in combat. French pilots also fought in the ranks of RAF and Soviet Air Force (one fighter group, if I remember).
These ladders are not actualy ideal, because the problem is much more complex and can be viewed from many angles, so I won´t say, which air force actually should be "7th"


This post has been edited by Naire on October 27, 2014 07:10 am

We probably need some sort of criteria for this chart.
By total number of aircraft in inventory? By total number of victories? If it is a case of comparing numbers, then it is all mathematics and statistics. But things are seldom that easy. In the greater scheme of things, it is impossible to say. It is not like a music chart or a championship where you can draw a line and say "this is it", situations changed, some times ARR was ahead, some times it was behind. Then "politics" get in the way and you get things like "third largest Axis force" or "fourth largest Allied force".
Largely (and looking very superficialy) when it was involved in combat, ARR was as follows:
- third largest air force on the Eastern Front after VVS and Luftwaffe
- third largest on home defence, after Luftwaffe and USAAF
- third largest on what the Romanians call "Western campaign" (post August 1944) after Luftwaffe and VVS.
Radu

I think it is really difficult to put together such a top. The implication was not uniform in terms of time, regions, campaigns, etc. Should we put together the Europe-centered and the Pacific fronts? Also, for example, as Naire said, if we take the year 1940 as a reference, the French Air Force was the second as importance... I guess we do need some criteria, and they should be somehow comparable. A few points, nevertheless:

As a home defence force, how much sense does it make to include USAF, since US territory was not under attack (as far as I know, it happened only once, in the case of a special plane carried by a Japanese sub)? On the other hand, I don't think that Romanian aviation as defence force could have surpassed, in any way, the RAF...

You mean the third on the Eastern Front, in the Western Campaign, right (compared perhaps with Bulgarian and Finnsih air forces), if we leave apart the RAF and USAF in Europe (and perhaps the Royal Regia Aeronauntica after September 1943)?

How strong was the Chinese Nationalist airforce, compared to the ARR?

This post has been edited by Agarici on October 27, 2014 11:59 am

Today we have 20 (twenty) Mig 21 LanceR C (air to air) remaining, without BVR air to air missles, and 12-18 (?) second-hand (third hand, according to some) F 16 (hopefully Block 52 version, more probably Block 15) on order, to replace them - to be delivered starting (the earliest) next year.

EDIT: it's 90% sure that the version will be Block 15. and the planes ARE third-hand. Sort of pile of junk, actually...

This post has been edited by Agarici on October 27, 2014 08:29 pm

Romania - Weapons, Equipment, and Support for F-16 Block 15 MLU Aircraft

I only add to your comments the question:
How intense fought in the first 9-10 months the French Air Force, before the Good Friday of May 10, 1940 ?
That is why I mentioned 5 weeks when I wrote "fought".
There was a minor advance in September 1939 of few miles / kilometers, an unsuccessful attempt to support Poland indirectly. I am not sure if there was any aerial activity, other than dropping some prints (leaflets) by the British airplanes.

Then around Narvik (Norway), if there was any Allied aerial involvement, I think it was British.
You had some intense fights with the Italian air force, but that was also in the "hot" 5 weeks following May 10th, not in the previous 9-10 months. (And of course, with Luftwaffe - this goes as obvious, for the same 5 weeks.)

But I am not arguing with your next statement: ". . . it fought in Dakar, Lebanon, Syria and during Operation Torch".

This post has been edited by Florin on October 27, 2014 09:19 pm

As a home defence force, how much sense does it make to include USAF, since US territory was not under attack (as far as I know, it happened only once, in the case of a special plane carried by a Japanese sub)? On the other hand, I don't think that Romanian aviation as defence force could have surpassed, in any way, the RAF...

You mean the third on the Eastern Front, in the Western Campaign, right (compared perhaps with Bulgarian and Finnsih air forces), if we leave apart the RAF and USAF in Europe (and perhaps the Royal Regia Aeronauntica after September 1943)?

When I spoke about "Home Defence", "Eastern Front" and "Western Campaign", I was only referring to ARR from ARR perspective based on what ARR was involved with. My point was that ARR was never "top dog".

But if we are to talk about "Home Defence" on a global level, then the order would be Luftwaffe, RAF, VVS, IJA, IJN, Regia Aeronautica, and maybe then get to ARR. Also, when talking about "Home Defence" let us not forget the Swiss Air Force, which defended Swiss neutrality with a lot of vigour and as a result a lot of American, German, Italian, etc planes ended up landing to "comfortable detention" in Switzerland and impressed into the ranks of the Swiss Air Force.

You see, that is EXACTLY where the problem is. How do you decide? What do you use as a comparison? What period? What location?

Locations and campaigns in themselves are complex too. Take, for example, what Romania calls the "Western Campaign". The rest of the world called that "Eastern Front" because it was East-of-Berlin. Romania called it "Western Campaign" because it was West-of-Romania. Trust me, when a Romanian tells a "westerner" that "Romania fought on the Western Front", that will take some explaining. ;-)

Radu

Interesting question, but does it have any useful purpose considering that Romania won't rank among the top dogs anyway. In other words, what's the big difference between being 6th, 7th or 8th for example?

Anyway, I would divide the issue into the following periods:

1. Romanian air force's position in Europe on September 1, 1939
2. "-"-" in 1940 (after defeat of Poland and France)
3. "-"-" on June 22, 1941
4. "-"-" on August 23, 1944

Imperialist, most tops or rankings do not have an useful purpose, even in sport contests.
However, people always liked to agitate around this idea.
I agree with you that the Romanian Royal Aeronautics had different strength at different times, but this happened with all other air forces - for better or for worse.
Of course it is common sense to compare all air forces at the same moment in time.
* * *
Regarding comparison at a given moment:
In an American made documentary, to emphasize how weak were the American ground forces just before the start of WWII, they literally mentioned that "even the army of Romania was stronger".
I am quoting them, I do not know if this was really true.
And regardless of ground forces, the U.S. maintained a very strong Navy all the time after World War I, and their aeronautical technologies were leading the industry in the 1930's.

But the problem is with the need for a "chart" that also includes air forces ARR never had anything to do with. That is why I proposed a chart based on campaigns ARR was involved in.
Making a list including ARR alongside Regia Aeronautica, IJA/IJN or French Air Force, which ARR had nothing to do with, is like making a chart that includes gymnastics, athletics, water polo and fencing because they are "in the same Olympic Games". Charts are always made for things that are related. Formula 1 has a different chart from WRC even they they are both "motorsport". Heavy Metal charts are different from Clasical Music charts, even though they are "music".
But if you insist, technically the only way that "works" is a pure mathematical/statistical comparison. Compile a total number of pieces of equipment, personnel, victories and losses for the whole period 1939-1945 and compare them to to similar numbers.
Radu

I do not insist.
I guess this means the end of the topic.

That airplane had thrown few incendiary bombs in the hope to lit and set on fire the dense and widespread forests from American Northwest - Oregon and Washington State.
The droppings were in Oregon.
What the Japanese did not take into account is the fact that that area is one the most humid in the world, for that latitude. Rainfalls are almost daily and everything around is very wet.
If the Japanese would have tried that with the forests spread in most parts of Southern California, they may have succeeded.
* * *
Then the Japanese discovered first in the world the continuous high velocity winds that circumnavigate around the planet at high altitudes.
In the northern hemisphere they move from west to east and in the southern hemisphere from east to west.
From mid 1944 to early 1945 they launched thousands of paper balloons with bomb load, targeting The United States. The paper sheets were glued together by high school girls working on this after school hours. A simple mechanical automatic system solved the problem of going too high while inflated by the sun's rays, then going too low when cooling during night.
A timer let the bomb drop after the decided interval. With one thing the Japanese engineers miscalculated - the speed of the high altitude winds was faster than their wildest hopes.
Sometimes a balloon traveled from Japan to America in three days. This was shorter than the time of the clocked mechanism, so no bomb dropped from a flying balloon.
However . . .
Defying a chance smaller than a big lottery prize, a balloon got tangled in aerial electric feeders and provoked short circuits and malfunctions that were close to derail important equipment installed in the Northwest (probably Washington State) under the program for the development of the American nuclear bomb.
Another balloon caused the only American deaths under the classification "Axis aerial attack over American main homeland". An American family went to spend some recreation time in the forest - what we may call a picnic. At a certain moment, the father arriving later to an open spot had just enough time to see his 5 children and his wife agitating around a fallen Japanese balloon.
Next second his family was blown up - becoming statistics and history.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 30, 2014 02:00 am

I understand, I like rankings, I just didn't see what's there to agitate about being 6th, 7th or 8th. If we were talking about being 2nd, 3rd or 4th then that would have been something worth agitating about.

Well, ARR was the third air force wherever it was involved. That is "something".
Radu