Irretrievable casualties inflicted upon the Red Army

[Dénes]

We have discussed here about the irretrievable casualties suffered by the Rumanian Army during the war.

I am wondering if there is a centralised data on (proven and estimated) irretrievable casualties inflicted by the Rumanian Army upon the Red Army available, if posible on a yearly basis.

[Dénes]

I see that no-one replied to my query. Too bad, as curently I am debating the issue with some historically minded people.

One of them posted the following statement:

QUOTE

Since I think it is likely that there was a very large difference in relative casualty infliction between German and Romanian/Hungarian/Italian units, my opinion would be that they are too different to meaningfully exist within the same construct. Unfortunately, we of course do not know how many casualties were caused by axis minors and how many by German forces, so it is not a feasible option to calculate two separate ratios. For most of the war though, minors made up a comparatively small proportion of axis forces on the EF, and was almost certainly responsible for a significantly smaller part of Soviet casualties than this again. Given all this, I think the least inadequate approach is actually to continue to compare the German and Soviet casualties - while noting those of axis minors and bearing in mind that a limited portion of Soviet casualties were inflicted by them.

In my reply, I voiced my opinion that East European Axis army units inflicted casualties to the enemy in a similar, if not identical, ratio; therefore, the losses and achievements of these smaller armies can be included straight in the overall Axis victories/losses statistics.

[dragos]

The response to this question should come from the Russians or ex-Soviets, not from Romanians. The estimated losses can be gathered from operations taken separately, but this it is not an exact figure anyway. From the response you quoted: indeed, the casualties inflicted by German army during the entire war can not be compared with Romania's, for example, but this is not the point. The point is: what was the ratio of casualties in the sectors where Romanian and Soviet forces faced each other ? A good example to start with should be the battle of Odessa, where there was no German intervention (except artillery).

[Victor]

There are only partial figures (for some operations). Also, because very often Romanian units (down to company level) were subordinated to German units, it is difficult to determine how many of those killed in front of their positions were killed by Romanians and how many by Germans.

[Dénes]

Here is a synopsis I've done regarding casualties inflicted and losses during the siege of Odessa:

QUOTE

Since Rumanian troops operated almost always within a German higher unit, it's hard to identify the losses inflicted to the Red Army purely by the Rumanians. One unique case might be the siege and capture of Odessa, in the Fall of 1941, operation conducted without sizeable German support. However, this operation wasn’t typical to most events on the Eastern Front, as it was rather a W.W.1-style siege of a fortified city, than a mobile offensive. Also, for the Rumanian Army, it was only less than the fourth month of combat action, thus there was not much experience gained. Nevertheless, the case of Odessa can give us an idea of how the Rumanian soldiers fared against the somewhat more experienced Red Army, in defence of a key objective. Statistics give conflicting information, but the following data seem to be close to reality: Between Aug. 2 and Oct. 16, the 4th Rumanian Army – largely responsible for the operation – with the help of the Air Force (in a few cases the Luftwaffe, too), inflicted an estimated 60,000 casualties to the Red Army, I addition to 16,000 POWs (mostly deserters) and 20,000 wounded. The Soviets acknowledged the loss of 16,578 men dead or missing and 24,690 wounded. These casualty numbers probably are a bit light, however. Most soldiers of the Odessa garrison could be evacuated however, and later took part in the fight for Crimea. In turn, the 4th Army lost 18,730 dead, 67,935 wounded and 11,471 missing during the 2 ½-month-long operation. In view of these loss data, it can be ascertained that the overall Rumanian losses were at an approx. 1.3:1 ratio to the Soviets, who – let’s emphasise again – were at advantage in defending a heavily fortified city, while the Rumanian Army was on assault, being repulsed repeatedly (as mentioned above, more like a W.W. 1 scenario).

Comments?

[Victor]

Other examples of predominant Romanian actions are the clearing of the Balaclava pocket, which resulted in the capture of more than 10,000 Soviet prisoners, the clearing of the Eltingen bridgehead, the capture of Nalchik, the clearing of the Sayuko Heights bridgehead etc, etc.

[mars]

Red army official casualties in battle of Odessa were 41268 men: 16578 were killed, missing or became POW, 24690 were wounded or sick

[Dénes]

Those are exactly the numbers I included in my synopsis.
The question is, are those figures 100% reliable, or did the Soviets somewhat downplay their losses?

[ragewolf]

The official casualties data which quote with Mars, came from USSR or
Russia? I mean before or after their disorganization?

I think if the data come from Russia, it would be more reliable.

[mars]

QUOTE

Those are exactly the numbers I included in my synopsis. The question is, are those figures 100% reliable, or did the Soviets somewhat downplay their losses?

This casualties statistic come from Gen Krivosheev's "Soviet Casualities and combat losses in the twentieth century", published way after the collapse of the USSR, of course I myselfe could ensure whether these data was complete.

[Dénes]

The note on Gen. Krivosheev 's book recalls to me a funny story.
When I told years ago to a friend also interested in history, that a new book will be soon published on Soviet Army losses in the XXth Century, his reply was: "Yeah? How many volumes?"

[ragewolf]

mars, are you the author of "Eastern Front campaign"? :wink:

[Dan Po]

[quote]In view of these loss data, it can be ascertained that the overall Rumanian losses were at an approx. 1.3:1 ratio to the Soviets, who – let’s emphasise again – were at advantage in defending a heavily fortified city, while the Rumanian Army was on assault, being repulsed repeatedly (as mentioned above, more like a W.W. 1 scenario).[/quote]

Comments?[/quote]

This ratio - 1,3:1 in those specific contitions of Odessa s siege could be considerated - in my oppinion - a good one.
Anyway i have to check some informations about ARR vs VVS score who was - till Odessa s fall - around 1:6. But i have to check for a precise information.
Also, I m very courious about the score of 1st armored divission - especially in august 1944 when this division was in her best shape. (with "marky" tanks :keep: ).

[Victor]

[quote] Anyway i have to check some informations about ARR vs VVS score who was - till Odessa s fall - around 1:6. But i have to check for a precise information.
[/quote]

Both ARR and VVS exagerated their number of kills around Odessa. However, it seems that VVS did it more.

[dragos]

Another case, albeit exceptional, would be the defense of 6th Mountain Battalion during the Soviet offensive in Caucasus, in January 1943, where the losses were estimated at 5000 dead for the Soviets, and 5 dead and 10 wounded for Romanians.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/memorii/?article=2&language=en