Efficient armed forces!

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

You're right somehow, but without the US backing them up I will not bet my money on them. Remember Yom Kippur war...

Kippur ? Ah yes. The war that started as a surprise Arab assault on the Bar Lev line and the Golan. And ended with superpowers scrambling for a cease fire to stop the IDF half way to Cairo and Damas :laugh:

[Alexandru H.]

Israel (where is our dear Maresal when we clearly need him )

Btw, it's funny how USA has received 0 votes

[rcristi]

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Israel had embargo from American armament till 1969 and they survived. It would be harder but they could do without the American aid.

Yeah right! So from where did they get the weapons before 1969? France! That's why they survived! The bests aircraft produced in Israel is/was IAI Kfir based on the french Mirage.

Cheers

[rcristi]

QUOTE

QUOTE  You're right somehow, but without the US backing them up I will not bet my money on them. Remember Yom Kippur war... Kippur ? Ah yes. The war that started as a surprise Arab assault on the Bar Lev line and the Golan. And ended with superpowers scrambling for a cease fire to stop the IDF half way to Cairo and Damas :laugh:

Right! But only after they received a huge amount of weapons from the us.

[C-2]

[quote
Yeah right! So from where did they get the weapons before 1969? France! That's why they survived! The bests aircraft produced in Israel is/was IAI Kfir based on the french Mirage.

Cheers[/quote]
You see in those days(the 60's),only the Russians ,Americans,French and British,were producing fighters.So they had to buy them from somewhere....
And as soon as they could ,they started building their national figter-the Nesher.after it,came the Kfir and so on.

[C-2]

And again,about Yon Kipur,when the US aid came,the Arab forces were already stoped in all fronts.

[Dan Po]

QUOTE

Did anyone see \"Tsahal\" by Claude Lanzmann ? A good overview. And a feeling of awe for the task and the situation.

Tsahal ? This Is Israelian army right ? So, this "Tsahal" by Claude Lanzmann is a movie ?


I vote for Israel too ...

But ... there the legal military active service is 3 years for men and 2 years for women ... After 3 years in the army every man who is not a real dumb can be an acceptable good soldier ... They have a strong US aid ....
I meet a few young (around 25 old) israeli guys and they are ALL of them really taff (even they haven t big muscles :wink: ).

BTW i heared some rummors about the future romanian rifle and they said that could be the israeli T.A.R-21 Tavor Assault Rifle -
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/sma...avor/Tavor.html ....

Who know something about this ?

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

Tsahal ? This Is Israelian army right ? So, this \"Tsahal\" by Claude Lanzmann is a movie ?

Tsahal is an Hebrew acronym for Israeli Defense Forces (Tsva Haganah Le-Israel). It's more like a 5 hour long documentary (1994) where the actors are playing their own role. It sums up Israel defense and security nightmare from different point of vue (conventional warfare, terrorism,) and the principles the army is build around, the training, evolution of doctrine etc... You also get historical archives, tons of interviews with of veterans ... Impressive.

Its in English (subtitled in French) because Claude tries to speak English with mixed results and few Israeli answer in French

[mabadesc]

Israel is a tempting choice, but mainly due to its commando units.

In terms of the most efficient, balanced army overall, my vote goes to the UK.

P.S. Oh yeah, and the Challenger 2 is a great tank with proven battle capability. It's very easy to criticize and find flaws with a particular weapon, especially a tank. But no equipment is perfect - they all have weaknesses and areas where they could improve. With all its minor flaws, the Challenger 2 is still a great tank.

[Florin]

I voted for UK.

They managed well the Malvine/Falkland War, and last year they conquered Basra, a 1.5 million people city, with no casualties (no dead). In the recent events, I think they behaved the best there.

For all of you who voted with Israel: Without the American help - open, continuous and massive, the war of 1973 would end with a disaster, maybe even with the end of the state of Israel.

And the war of 1967, that big victory of Israel, started with a surprise aerial attack carried out by the Israeli aviation, without any declaration of war, like the German attack against Soviet Union in June 1941.

[Victor]

QUOTE

And the war of 1967, that big victory of Israel, started with a surprise aerial attack carried out by the Israeli aviation, without any declaration of war, like the German attack against Soviet Union in June 1941.

Well, you could say the same for the Arabs during the Yom Kippur
War ("the one they would have one" in your words). :wink:

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

And the war of 1967, that big victory of Israel, started with a surprise aerial attack carried out by the Israeli aviation, without any declaration of war, like the German attack against Soviet Union in June 1941.

Come on, the Arabs were saber rattling for years. Anyway there could be no "war declaration" because no one recognized Israel. Surely the Arabs did not expect one.

QUOTE

Without the American help - open, continuous and massive, the war of 1973 would end with a disaster, maybe even with the end of the state of Israel.

Could be. But what does it tell about fighting abilities ? Nada, niente, zippo...

[Florin]

QUOTE

QUOTE Without the American help - open, continuous and massive, the war of 1973 would end with a disaster, maybe even with the end of the state of Israel. Could be. But what does it tell about fighting abilities ? Nada, niente, zippo...

As we know all here, today the fighting abilities is not the important factor.
Weaponry and intelligence (military know-how about enemy) are more important. (Fallujah seems to contradict me, but anyway... I return to the topic. )
Both weaponry and intelligence were given to Israel by the United States during the war of 1973, and I think to this was added some political pressure toward the Arab states.

Fighting abilities... I am not too well informed. At least I know that the tanks counterattacks of the Israeli forces were conducted with no infantry support, and this allowed the Egyptian soldiers to knock out two thirds of the tanks with individual antitank rockets.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

As we know all here, today the fighting abilities is not the important factor. Weaponry and intelligence (military know-how about enemy) are more important.

Apparently, among the many, I don't know. I always contested and keep contesting this point.

QUOTE

Fallujah seems to contradict me, but anyway...

Yes, do not let mere facts contradict your big gun theories

QUOTE

At least I know that the tanks counterattacks of the Israeli forces were conducted with no infantry support, and this allowed the Egyptian soldiers to knock out two thirds of the tanks with individual antitank rockets.

Look, this was a war. In order to forward a point you flatly reduce Yom kippur to the initial hours of the conflict. What you are talking about is the immediate reaction of the nearby tank units which
1. followed an established, previously proven doctrine
2. was almost a political necessity
The Israelis were surprised by the deployment of the saggers. The efficiency of the armed force can be seen in it's adaptability to changing conditions during the operations and, in fact, during the whole war.

That you have setbacks in a war is normal. It's how you learn about them which makes you a formidable foe or a cheesy mob.

[Florin]

The way Israel is in this moment, it can resist to all his neighbours combined. My notes pointed 1967 and 1973.
Even forgotten by the US, Israel would resist with no problems on the military frontlines... as it is today. The only way the Arabs could hope something would be a sea blockade on the Mediteranean Sea - with aviation, which would have to survive the Israeli aviation :question: , and with land to sea missiles. The missiles launchers are also subject to aviation attacks. Actually, in this problem I mention here, the old fashioned floating mines could be more effective.
However, this is a dead end situation, as the neutral vessels cannot be attacked without reaction from the neutral states. Also, they can try the oil card, but it would be by far less effective than in 1973.
In the real world, as long the US troops are deployed in Saudi Arabia, the Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iraq, the Arabs cannot even dream to try something... Something else other than they already have shown.