Causes of the Liberation and National Reunion War (1916-19)

[Najroda]

Sure, Seton Watson was a respected expert on Austria-Hungary. But his works have to be read, bearing in mind that he had developed anti-Hungarian feelings as he saw Austro-Hungary and thus Hungary as a willing accomplice to the pan-Germanism he detested. To me it is clear, that he was not an advocate of minority rights per se. Because in that case it would have been more logical for him to stand up for the rights of his native people the Scots and the othe oppressed Celtic people in Britain, or even closer to home, the oppressed Flemmish, Alsatians, Basques, Bretons and Occitans of France.

BTW, speaking of impartial sources. I suggest that the raporteur for the Council of Europe can be considered much more impartial than mr. Seton Watson, for the above reason. Yet you did not accept her factfinding and conclusions concerning the Hungarian origin of the Moldavian Csángós...

I have noticed that you are an educated, well-informed person. So I have good hope that you are capable of some self-examination once in every while and come to terms with any bias you may find

[Najroda]

Dragos, considering your statement that the minority situations in Transylvania under Hungarian and Romanian rule are uncomparable, here is an impartial opinion (not Hungarian and not Romanian):

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The extent of ethnic cultural maintenance in lands once part of Hungary is difficult to measure. Official census records by the host countries are unreliable sources for scientific inquiry.1 The reasons for this are largely political. In the perception of the governments involved, Hungarian revisionist claims to the detached territories continue to kindle ethnic hostility. It is therefore in the interest of the host countries to keep figures on Hungarians as low as possible. One way of underenumerating a given ethnic group is to define nationality in ambiguous terms; another is to place an undesirable ethnic group in a socially or economically disadvantageous position. In the latter case (used both in Czechoslovakia and in Romania) the government hopes that in the succeeding census people will claim to be members of the ruling nationality.

source: Michael Sozan, Hungarian Minorities and Minority Boundary Maintenance in Burgenland

[Carol I]

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...[Seton Watson']s works have to be read, bearing in mind that he had developed anti-Hungarian feelings...

As I mentioned before, I have not read Seton-Watson's work, so I do not know what exactly is in it. But, in the light of your statement and for balance, do we also have to minimise the importance of the sources that are pro-Hungarian?

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BTW, speaking of impartial sources. I suggest that the raporteur for the Council of Europe can be considered much more impartial than mr. Seton Watson, for the above reason. Yet you did not accept her factfinding and conclusions concerning the Hungarian origin of the Moldavian Csángós...

Well, I guess that people themselves know more about themselves than someone who came from far-far away. I admit that there was a time when I thought that the "experts" are some sort of all-knowing persons. But as I got older I have seen the reality: they are only humans and they are prone to mistakes (accidental or intentional).

My personal opinion on this particular issue is that some of the people now called ceangai have indeed a Hungarian origin, but not all of them. And I admit that I do not know if the magyarised Romanians are the majority or only a minority of the ceangai population. But there are indeed people who claim that their grandparents told them how their names were changed by the Hungarian priests 100 years ago (this is not too long time and indeed within the range of the living memory, as my grandfather for example was born in 1898).

And in general, I tend to form my own opinions and not to follow blindly those emitted by other humans that are indeed prone to make mistakes.

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I have noticed that you are an educated, well-informed person. So I have good hope that you are capable of some self-examination once in every while and come to terms with any bias you may find  :)

Thank you for your appreciation. I can only say the same about you. Including the: "I have good hope that you are capable of some self-examination once in every while and come to terms with any bias you may find "

By my personal nature and profession I am able (or at least try) to see all the sides of a problem. Can you say the same thing about you?

[Najroda]

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do we also have to minimise the importance of the sources that are pro-Hungarian?

I did not intend to minimise it. I only wanted to point out that his work has been proven not to be free of bias and a certain political agenda. If you're able to discount for that, his works are probably very useful.

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By my personal nature and profession I am able (or at least try) to see all the sides of a problem. Can you say the same thing about you?

I try, but feel free to warn me when I fail to do so

[Victor]

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Of course. my point was not that the state provided for these. It is correct that the intelectual life of the Romanians in Hungary depended on private inititiative, which in turn is dependent on their socio-economic strength.

This was not supposed to be a private initiative. The Austro-Hungarian law stated that were a ethnicity had majority, the state had to organize schools in that particular language. Yet there were no Romanian state schools in Hungary. The state even turned some Romanian into Hungarian schools. A good example would be the one of the "frontier-guard schools" from the small towns and villages from which the Romanian frontier-guard regiments were raised until the 1850s. In 1895 these became public schools with courses in Magyar.
Btw, I remind you, that the Romanian inter-war state financed Hungarian schools.

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It was even more extreme in counties where the nationalities formed the absolute majority, like in Fogaras county, where 88,7% of the population were Romanians vs. 6,7% Hungarian. There only 4,5% of the Romanians were able to speak Hungarian...

Don't worry, in resent day Romania there are Hungarian ethnics that do not know Romanian. It was a funny case a week ago on TV, when in a Gendarmerie unit, some Hungarian recruits had to be taught phonetically the oath of allegiance. I wonder if they were actually told what they swore.

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I said that the local administration in most majority Romanian regions was in Romanian, though not exclusively Romanian of course. And there were many regions and especially cities (including all provincial capitals that were dominated by Hungarians, Germans and Jews) that had no Romanian majority. Obviously for most Hungarian officials in these places there was not much of a point in learning Romanian.

Since the state did not organize Romanian schools in the areas were Romanians were a majority, then how do you expect somebody to believe the administration was in Romanian in those areas?

The Hungarian voting system was, as it was everywhere else in Europe, a tax-system. However, many of the Romanians could not afford to reach the required level, especially since from 1876 the level was raised for the territories they lived in. The electoral circumscriptions were arranged in a way so that only 50 out of 370 in Transylvania had a Romanian majority. Out of 512 seats in the Hungarian Parliament in Budapest, 5 were Romanian.

As for the Romanian wooden churches: this was the case of the Romanian Orthodox Church, which, despite the claimed religious freedom in Transylvania (freedom only for some), it was only tolerated. The Romanian stone churches were the Greek-Orthodox Churches.

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Orthodox churches destroyed. By whom? And were they more or less than the number of catholic and protestant churches and other properties destroyed and/or confiscated and not returned to their rightfull owners to this day?

During the Communist years there were also Orthodox churches destroyed (some of them national monuments), not only Protestant or Catholic.
As for the confiscated buildings, there are far more Romanians that have receive back the buildings, which they or their parents owned before 1947. It is not a measure of the Romanian Government directed against Hungarians or Jews. It is just that the present Government has no respect for the notion of private property, be it Romanian, Hungarian, German, Jewish etc.

[dead-cat]

aye. when it came to taking something away, communists were remarcably unbiased.

[Najroda]

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QUOTE Of course. my point was not that the state provided for these. It is correct that the intelectual life of the Romanians in Hungary depended on private inititiative, which in turn is dependent on their socio-economic strength. This was not supposed to be a private initiative. The Austro-Hungarian law stated that were a ethnicity had majority, the state had to organize schools in that particular language. Yet there were no Romanian state schools in Hungary. The state even turned some Romanian into Hungarian schools.

I don't know if there were no state-funded Romanian schools at all, but indeed they were mostly private, church schools. But many Hungarian schools, were also church schools. Also in Transylvania. If you have followed the process of the Hungarian churches for return of their schools, you must be aware of that there was at least one in every town and several in every major city.

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A good example would be the one of the \"frontier-guard schools\" from the small towns and villages from which the Romanian frontier-guard regiments were raised until the 1850s. In 1895 these became public schools with courses in Magyar.

Excuse me, but what is strange about ensuring that border guards properly master the state language? I mean, would Romania allow that anyone, regardless of his ethnicity, who can't speak Romanian guard it's borders?

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Btw, I remind you, that the Romanian inter-war state financed Hungarian schools.

After it had closed the majority of them, yes :cry:

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Don't worry, in resent day Romania there are Hungarian ethnics that do not know Romanian. It was a funny case a week ago on TV, when in a Gendarmerie unit, some Hungarian recruits had to be taught phonetically the oath of allegiance. I wonder if they were actually told what they swore. .

Well, if making fun of minority members is the current standard of the Romanian TV, it's very sad. How funny. Geeeez :|

But honestly, what do you think. Does the vast majority of Hungarians in Transylvania speak Romanian or not?

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Since the state did not organize Romanian schools in the areas were Romanians were a majority, then how do you expect somebody to believe the administration was in Romanian in those areas?

Don't. Do some research on the subject, beyond nationalistic propaganda that serves no other purpose than to prove how "evil" Hungary was towards the Romanians, only to justify Romania's treatment of the Hungarians since 1920.

This might be starting point, it is well documented, and many Transylvanian Romanian officials are named (but don't limit yourself to it): http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/biro/biro03.htm

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As for the Romanian wooden churches: this was the case of the Romanian Orthodox Church, which, despite the claimed religious freedom in Transylvania (freedom only for some), it was only tolerated. The Romanian stone churches were the Greek-Orthodox Churches.

Do you mean greek-catholic?

[Najroda]

BTW, let's not forget that what started this argument was Dragos' claim that the situation of minorities in Transylvania before 1918 was uncomparable (worse) than thereafter.

Well, as soon as anyone will show that Transylvanian Hungarians are not underrepresentated in all aspects of public life (in the various levels of administration [how many of the 40-something prefects are Hungarian?], the judicial, media [how many Hungarian news readers, national TV show hosts etc.], police [are there any Hungarian police commisioners, even in almost purely Hungarian inhabited towns in the Szekler lands?], army [how many high ranking Hungarian officers?] etc.) I will imediately rest my case

[Victor]

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I don't know if there were no state-funded Romanian schools at all, but indeed they were mostly private, church schools. But many Hungarian schools, were also church schools. Also in Transylvania. If you have followed the process of the Hungarian churches for return of their schools, you must be aware of that there was at least one in every town and several in every major city.

I can tell you how many: ZERO.

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Excuse me, but what is strange about ensuring that border guards properly master the state language? I mean, would Romania allow that anyone, regardless of his ethnicity, who can't speak Romanian guard it's borders?

As I said, the Romanain frontier-guard regiments were raised until 1851. After that they were disbanded. However, a lot of money remained from the funds they colected for uniforms, equipment etc. Those were their money and they decided to finance their schools with them. That is until 1895, when the state took over their schools and transformed them into schools in which Hungarian was taught. It was an example on how Romanian private schools were abusively transformed into Hungarian state schools.

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After it had closed the majority of them, yes

The Romanian state took over many former Austro-Hungarian state schools and transformed them into Romanian state schools (it seems logical to me). The fac that Hungarian schools were closed down does not change the fact that the Romanian state financed Hungarian schools, high-scools, theologiocal schools, professional schools. Something the Empire did not for the Romanian schools after 1867.

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Well, if making fun of minority members is the current standard of the Romanian TV, it's very sad. How funny. Geeeez  :|

No, it was not making fun of them (as you want dearly to think, Hungarians=victims). I thought it was funny to learn to say something phonetically without knowing what it means. Sorry.

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But honestly, what do you think. Does the vast majority of Hungarians in Transylvania speak Romanian or not?

How should I know, I don't live there. I know that walking into a store in Tusnad and asking to buy soimething in Romanian, you might not be understood by the employees.

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Don't. Do some research on the subject, beyond nationalistic propaganda that serves no other purpose than to prove how \"evil\" Hungary was towards the Romanians, only to justify Romania's treatment of the Hungarians since 1920.

As far as I have seen so far the Romanian state treated the Hungarian minority better than the Austro-Hungarian Empire did with the Romanian minority. Maybe there are others that should go beyond their nationaliostic propaganda.

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Do you mean greek-catholic?

Yes. :oops:

[Najroda]

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As far as I have seen so far the Romanian state treated the Hungarian minority better than the Austro-Hungarian Empire did with the Romanian minority. Maybe there are others that should go beyond their nationaliostic propaganda.

From what? How did you come to those conclusions? I mean you just said you don't live in Transylvania and you're not even sure if most Hungarians there can speak Romanian or not. Considering that, you seem pretty sure about your case...

[Victor]

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From what? How did you come to those conclusions? I mean you just said you don't live in Transylvania and you're not even sure if most Hungarians there can speak Romanian or not. Considering that, you seem pretty sure about your case...

Well, you don't live in Transylvania, but you also seem to be pretty sure about your case, too. :wink:

I was refering to the inter-war period. The Communist period is special since everybody was treated badly. And present-day is unquestionable, even to you.

During the inter-war period, the Romanian state financed 526 Hungarian schools plus Hungarian high-schoolsm, theological schools, professional schools.

The Romanian state financed the Hungarian churches with more money/believer than it funded the Romanian Orthodox Church (true they had much fewer believers). How much money did teh Austro-Hungarian state give to the Orthodox Church?

The Hungarian peasants were not expcepted from the land reform. They received land just like all the other peasants.

Hungarians also received the univeresal right to vote, like any other Romanian citizen and they did it having more elected representatives than Romanians had in the Parliament in Budapest.

What did you expect? Hungarian prefects, high ranking military officials? Do you think it would be a good idea, when they had a lot of revisionist ideas? Did Hungary employ Romanians in high positions during 1940-44?

The overall situation was better than what Romanians had before 1918.

[dragos]

QUOTE

BTW, let's not forget that what started this argument was Dragos' claim that the situation of minorities in Transylvania before 1918 was uncomparable (worse) than thereafter. Well, as soon as anyone will show that Transylvanian Hungarians are not underrepresentated in all aspects of public life (in the various levels of administration [how many of the 40-something prefects are Hungarian?], the judicial, media [how many Hungarian news readers, national TV show hosts etc.], police [are there any Hungarian police commisioners, even in almost purely Hungarian inhabited towns in the Szekler lands?], army [how many high ranking Hungarian officers?] etc.) I will imediately rest my case  :lol:

It is difficult to answer your question without a serious research in archives, and not sure even if.

Another point we should consider is that thousands of Romanian soldiers of A-H army risked their lifes defecting to Romania during WWI, to fight against Hungary. I don't think this was because they were feeling well under Hungarian rule. As you have said in another thread, "however, every person, and also every nation's patience has it's ultimate limits."

[Victor]

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Well, as soon as anyone will show that Transylvanian Hungarians are not underrepresentated in all aspects of public life (in the various levels of administration [how many of the 40-something prefects are Hungarian?], the judicial, media [how many Hungarian news readers, national TV show hosts etc.], police [are there any Hungarian police commisioners, even in almost purely Hungarian inhabited towns in the Szekler lands?], army [how many high ranking Hungarian officers?] etc.) I will imediately rest my case  :lol:

Do not steer the discussion away from the main course. It is not about the current situation.

As for the underepresentation, you must understand that since the Hungarians have an ethnic party, which cannot win the elections for obvious reasons, they cannot have prefects, until the system will be changed and become more decentralized. The prefect is a political postion and is named from the party/parties that form the government.

As for the other positions, I do not know nbumbers, but the siutuation is similar. Until the police will become subordinated to the local community, as it should be, the decision is mainly political, and given the system the chiefs are named because they are "friends" with "someone".

There are Hungarians that have gone beyond the limits of the ethnical party. For instance the leader of the Bucharest organization of the main opposition party is Hungarian. I personally would have voted for him if he would have candidated for mayor.

[Dénes]

I am reading with interest the arguments enlisted by both sides. Currently I don't have the time to look into the matter, therefore I'll stay on the sidelines.

However, I'd like to draw your attention to the points of view of Iuliu Maniu, a great inter-war Rumanian politician from Transylvania (pre-1919 MP at the Budapest Parliament and post-Union MP at Bucharest Parliament), and his much talked about, but rarely quoted pamphlet, titled : "M-am saturat de Romania" ("I've had enough of Rumania"), written in late 1938, summing up the aftermath and effect of the union of Transylvania with Rumania.

After a brief search, all I could find is an excerpt from the aforementioned text:
"Ideea desprinsa din Memorandurile maniste, din noiembrie '38 sau decembrie '38, este aceea ca singurul beneficiar al unirii este Vechiul Regat. Marea unire nu a fost un paradis pentru ardeleni, ci o dezamagire continua, un izvor de frustrari, o trecere brusca dintr-un sistem de valori Mitteleuropean intr-unul balcanic, fanariot, tarat in esenta. De aici refuzul lui Slavici de a se „uni cu tara"." (could someone translate it, please?)

I believe knowing the complete text of this document would help us making a clearer picture of this topic.

[dragos]

Speaking of impartial sources (not Hungarian and not Romanian), General Henri Berthelot telegraphed the war minister of France, in February 1919, that "according to all reports, Hungarians resort to real atrocities against Romanian population, hence grave acts will occur unless the Hungarian Government will be immediately summoned."